Comments from the Devs

[Mina]

^ I hope so. My favorite classes in games are usually ones that are movement heavy. I don't even like being a DD that stands still and smacks the weapon at the monster for crazy damage.

I liked being the puller, the support, the melee that had to rotate around the monster to do abilities... etc.

[Lordender]

Yoshida is such a troll, for that, I <3 him. I wish I could explain why but its oh so glorious.

[Lucavi]

More active dodging from classes and knockbacks would help. The game does a great job of mimicing the old school 2D games of standing still, walking forward, swinging, then moving back to stand still again.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't even look at it as an argument; its a debate. My main point of debate is that if we keep discussing concepts in 2.0 as if it were 1.0, we're already dead, because the game will flop yet again. You have to start looking outward at what else works and could work here. There's no other way for the game to survive in an MMO market. If you want to keep it 100% "Classic FF", then release it as a standalone solo title and pray that the boxed sales recoup the development costs.

This whole "cura" thing is annoying because it implies that you're still stuck on this "if its not the cure spell, all that's left for healing in FF is the cura spell", which is just... ugh.

These two concepts are not mutually exclusive (and since Cura wouldn't make THM/BRD into capable main healers, that's really a point that's not being made).

The game has a huge healer dropoff from WHM to anyone else. Now, if we're talking about second-tier healers, there are many different possible solutions, ranging from easy, straightforward stuff like make Cura cross-classable to more complicated solutions like allow PGL to use Sacred Prism on Second Wind or allow LNC to AoE Life Surge. I'm not saying Cura is the only way to address the problem, only that a) the problem needs to be addressed and b) Cura is a very easy way to address it, in addition to whatever else may be planned.

[Lucavi]

Giving other classes a shittier version of what the main healer is healing with is the worst excuse for a solution that exists in today's MMO market. You can quote me on that, and if this turns out to be an issue post-2.0 launch, I want you to drag it back out so I can beat people over the head with it. Its outright terrible. Its low-budget, low-intelligence, and only reinforces the notion that "there's one way to heal, and that's by casting X, regardless of who casts it".

Don't get me wrong; melee and support classes should have an option to heal if its designed well (Like, say, GW2, where EVERY CLASS has at least 4 ways to heal), but Christ, if giving everyone a 25-50% version of the same spell that the whm has is even on the table as a reliable solution to this quandry, then SE might as well hang it up, because the people that SE is trying to get to pay for the game (Not those on the OF, and not those on BG, considering the majority of people both here and on the OF consider 2.0 a lock purchase anyway) are simply not going to tolerate such a shoddy way to address a serious issue in the game, especially when so many other MMOs do it better already.

SE already has a disadvantage in that they have a literal black strike against them already. They can't halfass something like this in that way.

[Izzy]

The entire game needs less "stand around" everything. They're working on that, I should hope.

Best post. It amazes me how much you have to stand around in FFXI/FFXIV 1.0.

[Lucavi]

Let me make it clear: I love SE. I love FF. Hell, I'm listening to the battle theme from FFIV right now, and have been for about an hour. I bleed this franchise, and that's why I want to see it succeed. I don't want the OF idiots that will love any lump of shit SE plops on their lap, to ruin this game. I want a crisp, modern FF that, while offering something uniquely Square Enix, is also modern enough to not only not beat you over the head with clunky, outdated concepts, but can also be built upon through subsequent expansions.

I actually feel good about this one. I'm not happy about some things, but the core is there, I believe. I just want the OF posters (and they're in Alpha as much as they whine about not being there) to die in a fire or have some Mafia head break their fingers so they can't keep typing "WE LOVE YOU SE EVERYTHING IS PERFECT DON'T MAKE THE GAME MODERN BECAUSE MODERN = WOW AND THAT'S CRAP!" to Yoshi's staff.

[Mina]

That was something I really liked about GW2 was that everyone had effective ways of healing themselves.

[Niiro]

Sure. There's a debuff that refreshes quickly that you "place" on enemies. From that point on, any damage you deal to the mob will transfer a large percent of it dealt to your allies. Thus, the harder (and faster) you hit, the more you heal everyone in your party (or AOE if in PVP). Chloros also have single target insta-heals for "oh shit" moments, castable AOE heals to keep people topped off, and had a nifty "cocoon" move that jacked up the caster's defense

So....they're DNCs, but they actually work.

Debuffs that recover HP based on damage dealt (sambas, slightly tweaked), manual heals of single/AoE variety (waltzes) and even a situational defensive ability (fan dance).

SE certainly had plenty of ideas on alternate sources of healing in XI (avatars, autos, DNC) but the game mechanics just didn't allow them to be effective (reliance on universal recasts-SMN/DNC, shoddy AI-SMN/PUP, feeding mobs TP-PUP/DNC). Hopefully now that they have a tighter control on game mechanics from the start they make good on that opportunity to make neat ideas actually practical in-game.

I'd really love to see SAM take on the FFT/TO angle combined with the XI SAM and DNC. TP gaining abilities, TP heals, charges to spend on special buffs, all while getting to hit things.

edit: also anyone else remember Sacrifice? I miss Sacrifice.

[Lordender]

Giving other classes a shittier version of what the main healer is healing with is the worst excuse for a solution that exists in today's MMO market. You can quote me on that, and if this turns out to be an issue post-2.0 launch, I want you to drag it back out so I can beat people over the head with it. Its outright terrible. Its low-budget, low-intelligence, and only reinforces the notion that "there's one way to heal, and that's by casting X, regardless of who casts it".

Don't get me wrong; melee and support classes should have an option to heal if its designed well (Like, say, GW2, where EVERY CLASS has at least 4 ways to heal), but Christ, if giving everyone a 25-50% version of the same spell that the whm has is even on the table as a reliable solution to this quandry, then SE might as well hang it up, because the people that SE is trying to get to pay for the game (Not those on the OF, and not those on BG, considering the majority of people both here and on the OF consider 2.0 a lock purchase anyway) are simply not going to tolerate such a shoddy way to address a serious issue in the game, especially when so many other MMOs do it better already.

SE already has a disadvantage in that they have a literal black strike against them already. They can't halfass something like this in that way.

Thats another reason why WoW is so awesome, for most fuck off shit, each class has a way of healing. We can heal ourselves enough to do stuff but its usually not enough healing for us to not need a healer for group content. If you had to "party level" in WoW, you could throw any combo in there you wanted.

[Lucavi]

Just rattling off ways to heal off the top of my head:

-Direct heals
-Heal over time spells
-Touch-based healing (IE: you run something into someone and it heals them)
-Healing "traps"/glyphs (someone triggers an area or an object and is healed)
-Radius-based healing (think a box that has an AOE effect around it so long as you stand there
-Circle-based healing (same thing but with a circle or conical area - stand in it and be healed!
-Damage-based healing (deal damage, receive health)
-Shield-based healing (heal someone significantly and place a damage-absorbing shield on them)
-Overhealing (heal someone past their maximum health and the excess spills over to others)
-"trick" healing (place a curse on someone ((a monster, a PVP target)) that converts all damage dealt to healing)
-Target-based healing (A fun one in TERA where you "lock on" to one or more targets, then heal all of them at once - requires you to actually aim or "find" them with your mouse/controller)

I've missed a lot, but the list goes on and on. There are hundreds of ways to heal people, and "cure" and "cura" is a joke if that's all they're going to come up with.

For some of these heals, you stand still and cast. For some, they instantly cast. For some, you can move around because you're laying heals on a "spot" that people come in contact with, or because you're simply insta-applying a buff or debuff. We don't need another 10 years of a whm standing still, slowly healing while a mob runs up to them and smacks the ever-loving shit out of them.

[miokomioko]

I'd really love to see SAM take on the FFT/TO angle combined with the XI SAM and DNC. TP gaining abilities, TP heals, charges to spend on special buffs, all while getting to hit things.

I never cared to heal others in MMOs, but when they started introducing MP usage for Pugilist/Monk, I started getting kinda' psyched about the possibilities of something like White Monk (except more focus on healing allies). I actually enjoyed the concept of Dancer (however crappy its implementation ultimately was).

I hope Yoshi looked back on XI as a reference of both what to do and what not to do (as well as other "modern MMOs").

[Oreth]

As a main WHM in FFXIV (coming from a main PLD/RNG/DRG) in FFXI I have some points on this...

I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to see Cura be spread across other classes. I dont think it will break the game and would offer other classes more flexibility for those oh shit moments, But on that point I can also agree it would be meh with us just then settling on Cura with it being the only type of heal or main heal. There would also maybe be balance issues where we are never in any major danger if we have a solution for the oh shit moments all the time...

I really didn't like getting paired up with other WHMs that were far below par (im no expert but id consider myself competent and capable of playing the job well) and it often frustrated me beyond belief because you essentially found yourself in a situation where you are being relied on as the sole healer and having to put up with server lag, badly implemented battle designs from your end but all the other people experiencing the same thing that having someone else or a support hearler would have been nice. I guess this will hopefully go away in 2.0 but i definately think a hybrid or another class that could heal as well as WHM would be fine but offered more outside pure healing that they could work in tandem together quite well.

Maybe Arcanist will fill this role? Isnt the Carby supposed to be good for healing / tanking?



Right now in my opinion I think the best option would be to introduce a Dancer style job that could DD but keep the party topped up and help with AOE debuffs to assist the WHM where you essentially dont need to WHMs but are doing just as good a job or better with the Combo of the two instead of just two WHMs... I think people just want different dynamics and want to see more going on within the party?

PS - im pissed drunk right now and can agree my spelling / grammar is horrific!

[Jakson]

Only problem I have with everybody moving around is when healers have a bulk (or huge chunk) of their healing based on placeable AoEs like Elementalist with Staff/Water in GW2. Make cures targetable and I can cast while moving and I'm all for it.

[miokomioko]

Maybe Arcanist will fill this role? Isnt the Carby supposed to be good for healing / tanking?

I think the last time they discussed it during some presentation, Carbuncle was described to have a tank mode and a debuff mode... whatever that might ultimately mean.

edit: man, I swear they've changed the description of Arcanist a dozen times, now it says:

"Adepts of the art of arcanum derive their might from symbols of power born of geometric techniques hailing from across the southern seas. Held within occult grimoires, these symbols lend shape to the arcanist's aether, thereby allowing him to produce myriad powerful spells.

Using the selfsame symbols to unlock the latent power contained within gemstones, arcanists are also able to summon forth the familiar known as Carbuncle to carry out their bidding."

[Lucavi]

So....they're DNCs, but they actually work.

Debuffs that recover HP based on damage dealt (sambas, slightly tweaked), manual heals of single/AoE variety (waltzes) and even a situational defensive ability (fan dance).

Kinda. Take a dancer, drape them in robes and mage gear, stick them in the back-row and have them hit people with spells and yes, sorta. They're a mage-dancer that the devs actually committed to. SE didn't commit to many of the classes that they designed, for whatever reason.

@Jakson: I'd like to see more games with lock-on healing. At first I thought it would suck because of latency issues or something, but its a brilliant concept. Its just like it sounds; you activate the spell, drag a reticule over your allies, and as you hit each one, they "lock on"; press it again to cast the spell and presto, big-ass healing. It was also pretty MP-efficient, presumably because it actually required some semblance of skill to activate.

For a game as stiff and movement-less-based as XIV, it would be painfully easy to implement.

[Spider-Dan]

Giving other classes a shittier version of what the main healer is healing with is the worst excuse for a solution that exists in today's MMO market.

[...]

Don't get me wrong; melee and support classes should have an option to heal if its designed well (Like, say, GW2, where EVERY CLASS has at least 4 ways to heal)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't GW2 the game that:

is a completely different beast from any other game in that you don't need to party with anyone for anything, ever.

So yeah, unless you're thinking that XIV should eliminate the need for grouping, ARR will need to maintain a healing gap between "classes that capably fulfill the role of main healer" and "everyone else."

In THAT context, giving classes an ability that can allow them to heal (but not quite as good as a Main Healer) is a rather important and useful function. I don't see why it is at all important whether it's the same style of heal as a main healer or a totally different mechanism; at the end of the day, it must be inferior. The rest is flavor.

And for the record: having THM (a mage) and BRD (a support job that uses MP to cast its existing buffs) lean on casting magic to heal is not exactly an affront to originality. There aren't many mage classes in the game as is, and I've already said (repeatedly) that giving Cura to mages/hybrid-mages is not an exclusive solution. Let the non-mage jobs have non-magic healing solutions, for all I care.

[Lucavi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't GW2 the game that:


So yeah, unless you're thinking that XIV should eliminate the need for grouping, ARR will need to maintain a healing gap between "classes that capably fulfill the role of main healer" and "everyone else."

In THAT context, giving classes an ability that can allow them to heal (but not quite as good as a Main Healer) is a rather important and useful function.

You're missing the context of what I said. I said party, as in, to "PARTY": to actively form a party with individuals around you, then proceed to actually get credit for helping them or whatnot. You don't need to do this, but if you aren't helping one another against packs of Champions, you're going to all get raped individually. The game is still challenging, solo; hell, they scale it so that you're never actually completely raping the flesh off of the enemy, but yeah, you'd better work together with your allies around you to get shit done if you don't want to get killed again and again on zone bosses. Don't confuse the lack of needing to party in situations as an indicator that things are suddenly faceroll easy. You'll get your shit wrecked in GW2 faster in some instances than in XI if you tackle something solo.

Heals aren't dependent on being in a party; if I pop my AOE heal, anyone around me is healed, regardless. I don't have to invite someone for them to get credit for helping me on my kill, and I don't have to have them invite me to get credit for their kill. That's what I meant by not having to need to party with people. Party, not play with people. This also leads to a lack of exclusion of others for even the most simple of tasks; you don't have to worry about not wanting to invite someone to something because it'll "kill your xp" or "lower your droprate". You just help, then move on, or revive them, then move on. There's no real reason for anyone to be selfish.

For the dungeons, though, you have to actually party (be -in- a party), so I suppose I still misspoke to a point. Your assertion of my point was incorrect, however.

[solracht]

That quote comes from a discussion about leveling outside in the world, context how does it work. Also not having to manually form a party doesn't mean there isn't grouping.

GW2 doesn't have healers (in the traditional sense like WHM is, anyway), so there isn't a gap between healers and non-healers. I don't know if that game is a good example to use when talking about how the healing role should be treated (since it doesn't exist there).

[Lucavi]

Yeah, there isn't a true "gap" anyway. If you wanna stop getting your shit wrecked, you move back and let someone else hold the mob's attention. Heal yourself or get near someone else's heal, then keep fighting. If you fall over, either keep fighting until its dead (so you get up) or use a defensive ability to get away or cover your tracks, then heal yourself back up to full.

This is what I mean, SD: you need to get out and see other things before you start trying to compare (or break down other's comparisons). There's a lot you're missing out there, so of course you're going to talk the way you talk.