Comments from the Devs

[Deuce]

I wonder if Spiderdan ever played 1.0 post job release lol. Honestly, I never saw a shortage of white mages. In fact, there always seemed to be a surplus of WHM. I trust Yoshi to keep all the classes dynamic and fun. If you hate healing I hate it break it to you, you're going to probably hate healing even if it's on an Arcanist. I love the idea of a specialized job system with the current armory system, if you want variation you can either pick another job or roll with a class.

With the job system and being able to literally switch on a damn dime it is VERY unnecessary to have a 'modern mmo' setup. Unlike XI, there is no painful process of going back to town and grabbing all of your gear from mog house porting back, rebuffing and then going in. You can literally buff, switch, and proceed. With the new equip dummy system you don't even have to worry about a full set clogging your inventory. If they wanted to base a job off conjurer specifically dedicated to all buffs with zero attacks (they wouldn't, but..) they could. Why? Because you can easily just switch to friggen WHM or DD CNJ once you have finished your purpose. The system is very convenient and it makes for great way to make super situational jobs and say, 'fuck you' to the usual game struggling for balance. If it turns out to be 1 job to 1 class I could see that not working, however if it is multiple jobs to a class then every single doesn't need to be fine tuned to be a standalone ass kicker and can give each class a nice variety, no matter how situtational.

I don't believe 1.0 is a good measure for how many WHMs were available to play with. With very little content available, players were forced or encouraged to level a job they wouldn't normally consider playing. I think if you asked people that had 50 WHM whether or not they enjoyed healing for a main class the numbers would be far lower.

As for 1:1 class to job ratio I wouldn't be surprised. They made arcanist for summoner so i dont see any reason they couldn't do it for other jobs. And why do jobs need to have variety from their class? In 1.0 jobs were just glorified versions of their respective class with fancy abilities and armor. I don't see much of a point to differentiate them when the original intention was for one to be for individual and the other for team based play.

In ARR it will be interesting to see how players unfamiliar with 1.0 interpret the job/class system. They could radically alter the way we play in varying situations.

[mightyg]

Another thing that would be good to keep people on Healing jobs is a post cap xp system like merit points or xp into grand company tokens so you're still making some sense of progress when you hit the cap. Still need more healers though. Wouldn't be surprised if they gave Bard a few tools after seeing that bullet shield in the trailer.

[Niiro]

I wonder if Spiderdan ever played 1.0 post job release lol. Honestly, I never saw a shortage of white mages. In fact, there always seemed to be a surplus of WHM. I trust Yoshi to keep all the classes dynamic and fun. If you hate healing I hate it break it to you, you're going to probably hate healing even if it's on an Arcanist. I love the idea of a specialized job system with the current armory system, if you want variation you can either pick another job or roll with a class.

With the job system and being able to literally switch on a damn dime it is VERY unnecessary to have a 'modern mmo' setup. Unlike XI, there is no painful process of going back to town and grabbing all of your gear from mog house porting back, rebuffing and then going in. You can literally buff, switch, and proceed. With the new equip dummy system you don't even have to worry about a full set clogging your inventory. If they wanted to base a job off conjurer specifically dedicated to all buffs with zero attacks (they wouldn't, but..) they could. Why? Because you can easily just switch to friggen WHM or DD CNJ once you have finished your purpose. The system is very convenient and it makes for great way to make super situational jobs and say, 'fuck you' to the usual game struggling for balance. If it turns out to be 1 job to 1 class I could see that not working, however if it is multiple jobs to a class then every single doesn't need to be fine tuned to be a standalone ass kicker and can give each class a nice variety, no matter how situtational. '

The class:job system was a failed false dichotomy, the skills offered by jobs made them superior in virtually every situation with the only exception of note being THM for the enhanced AoE Sanguine.

Aside from the fact that SE has stated they intend to prevent or at least discourage job changing during events (it only enforces "X job over Y job in Z situation and if you don't have both leveled gtfo") no one wants to see super situational jobs because it's a fucking stupid idea. It's not clever or intuitive or even fun to have to constantly change jobs, change food, wait on recast timers, etc, it's cumbersome and a massive waste of time and resources.

If SE can't balance the jobs they already have before rolling out new ones then they've learned nothing and the system is doomed from the start.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I've always felt the biggest flaw in the system is the traits. If the next job added to each class don't utilize the class' traits then they're unless. What would DRK do with Enhanced Outmauever if it didn't use a shield? Makes a case for that job branching off MRD, I know, but also points out how short-sighted 1.0's system was.

What I see happening to curb this is traits moving to enhance statistics and attributes (like XI) rather than specific abilities, unless of course they plan on making every tank job branch off Gladiator, every ranged DPS off ARC, every healer off CNJ, etc. you see the pattern. Then the hindrance becomes variety in execution, which is what Lucavi argues, and well, inhibits modernism and intelligent class design (as in the case of Chloromancer). In short, every healer would heal the same way and that's boring.

[Niiro]

Many of us have longed to see the class:job system abandoned entirely (the reasons you listed being among some of the more prominent issues).

The idea of having multiple jobs branch off the same class is crippled in so many ways and likewise having to add worthless introductory classes that won't be used post-job availability just to introduce new jobs is a massive waste.

[kisada]

Many of us have longed to see the class:job system abandoned entirely (the reasons you listed being among some of the more prominent issues).

The idea of having multiple jobs branch off the same class is crippled in so many ways and likewise having to add worthless introductory classes that won't be used post-job availability just to introduce new jobs is a massive waste.

i literally never played a single second after jobs were introduced. from what you're saying, it sounds like everyone just plays jobs and the original classes don't have much use?

can anyone elaborate a bit on what it was like after the jobs patch?

[Grey Jorildyn]

i literally never played a single second after jobs were introduced. from what you're saying, it sounds like everyone just plays jobs and the original classes don't have much use?

That's pretty much it. The only class that maintained some utility was THM due to the survivability factor of having access to Sentinel (on top of Sanguine Rite), Cure, Sacred prism, and Stoneskin. In a few places it was a good way to take good nuking power into an instance that could also sustain itself better than BLM. Early Nael van Darnus fights and Ifrit (Hard) post-job system comes to mind. After you learn the fights well enough though, THM could be replaced in a strong group.

[Lokus]

The class:job system was a failed false dichotomy, the skills offered by jobs made them superior in virtually every situation with the only exception of note being THM for the enhanced AoE Sanguine.

Aside from the fact that SE has stated they intend to prevent or at least discourage job changing during events (it only enforces "X job over Y job in Z situation and if you don't have both leveled gtfo") no one wants to see super situational jobs because it's a fucking stupid idea. It's not clever or intuitive or even fun to have to constantly change jobs, change food, wait on recast timers, etc, it's cumbersome and a massive waste of time and resources.

If SE can't balance the jobs they already have before rolling out new ones then they've learned nothing and the system is doomed from the start.

I've always felt that the way people used job changing for events and within events was just the evolution of the whole gear changing for actions people used in XI. People just gotta eek out that extra damage/safety.

@kisada: Just think of jobs as the advanced versions of classes like Black Wizard was to Black Mage in FFI. That's pretty much how they were implemented.

[Lucavi]

Spitting hot fire on the Alpha forums. I will not go quietly into the night!

[Enygma55]

Even if job changing is cumbersome and inconveinent, if the overall effect is increased efficiency in a 1hr dungeon run, you bet people will do it. There is no way around the fact that some jobs will excel far more at certain parts of the run than others. You cant balance everything.

The idea behind the class/job system is sound IMO. I consider the entire 1.0 system as a patch work anyways due to the nature of the system limitations. None of that stuff was intended to work that way from the beginning and I was very surprised the battle/class reform ended up working so well as is. Im actually sad TP system is changing as is, but I havent seen the new system in full force to judge yet.

Also of-course everyone will be on Jobs because everything endgame is party based. Jobs were designed to work within a party where DD jobs specialized in DD and mages specialized in full heal or full nuke. No one wants 2 half-ass DD that can heal. People will always favor the extremes to maximize efficiency.

[Alkar]

1.0 is dead and buried. What was true there may no longer apply in ARR.
ARR is a new game in every possible way.

[Elcura]

Spitting hot fire on the Alpha forums. I will not go quietly into the night!

How many posts until they ban you? Not saying it should happen, but I think being right on the OF means not being an idiot which means eventual ban.

[blythe]

1.0 is dead and buried. What was true there may no longer apply in ARR.
ARR is a new game in every possible way.

Which is why I don't get why they're holding on to the classes. In 1.0 it made sense because scrapping the classes would mean changing/getting rid of a lot of resources from the class quests to the guilds, etc. But with everything changing anyway just seems pointless.

Unless they do have a (secret) plan to clearly define the differences beyond solo vs. party in which case I'll shut up.

[Niiro]

Even if job changing is cumbersome and inconveinent, if the overall effect is increased efficiency in a 1hr dungeon run, you bet people will do it. There is no way around the fact that some jobs will excel far more at certain parts of the run than others. You cant balance everything.

Except SE has said they don't want job hopping to be a viable tactic and they already started implementing job changing limitations in 1.0, I would expect them to be more prevalent in 2.0.

Having everyone change jobs and stand around picking their noses for 3 mins while people's Flare recasts come up just to more easily clear 1 room of mobs is not intuitive, fluent, or fun. Making a balanced party from the outset and properly utilizing each jobs' abilities requires forethought and strategy, not the rock-paper-scissors bullshit of everyone changing to the job best suited for any given room or mob.

[miokomioko]

Making a balanced party from the outset and properly utilizing each jobs' abilities requires forethought and tactical thinking

I really hope this is what they have in mind. Same goes for equipping for said raids.

[Alkar]

Which is why I don't get why they're holding on to the classes. In 1.0 it made sense because scrapping the classes would mean changing/getting rid of a lot of resources from the class quests to the guilds, etc. But with everything changing anyway just seems pointless.

Unless they do have a (secret) plan to clearly define the differences beyond solo vs. party in which case I'll shut up.

They may have one, we really have no way to know until we see how jobs are handled in ARR.

[Thiefami]

Except SE has said they don't want job hopping to be a viable tactic and they already started implementing job changing limitations in 1.0, I would expect them to be more prevalent in 2.0.

I don't ever remember them ever saying that. That would pretty much scrap the entire idea of be what you want when you want it. I hate to be the one to tell you there's no Santa Claus Niiro, but SE isn't ditching the armory system.

[Niiro]

I'm not about to go digging through volumes of dev Q&A but when discussing how dungeons were done with all of the frantic speed run/job switching ridiculousness they responded by saying it wasn't what they had in mind.

Lo and behold the next (and last) event introduced in 1.0 (Skirmish) locked your jobs on entry.

Has nothing to do with the armoury system or changing jobs in the field, it has to do with changing jobs mid event. It breaks game flow, throws the need for creative and adaptive strategy out the window, and ultimately removes the need to balance jobs and content because "just level all jobs and you'll be fine".

[solracht]

I don't know if there's more, but I remember this quote:

Very interesting suggestion here! We made sure to pass along your discussion, suggestions and ideas to Yoshida to get his thoughts. He told us that for 2.0 they are discussing on imposing some restrictions on class/jobs (or the ability to change once you have entered) on certain raids/dungeons. He reiterated that these restrictions would not be set for all raids/dungeons, however.

PS. I apologize for the wait!

[Thiefami]

Skirmish was a back to back mob fight. lol.

^and I can understand that Solracht, as that makes things far more difficult. The fact that it's not set for entirety of the game pretty much shows they are aware it's a viable tactic and people will use it. Like XI events taking away your subjob doesn't mean SE doesn't want you to use your subjobs