Comments from the Devs

[miokomioko]

There seems to be a lot of web media coverage just because the game is in a unique situation... so hopefully that has a positive effect.

[Aleth]

That's pretty much all I'm doing for the Alpha. There are so many changes planned for beta that there's really no point in offering many suggestions until I get my paws on it. In the meantime, I'll just let SE know that not everyone wants XI 2.0, and remind them (politely) that, should they make a XI HD, they won't obtain nearly the amount of subs they need to turn a profit.

The staff seems to have a good head on their shoulders, from what I've read, but I'm sure its always nice for them to hear that some people out there (who can actually type and use proper syntax and structure) agree with them.

While this is true, I've noticed a lot of people are throwing out the baby with the bathwater whenever someone uses an example from FFXI. Remember that the original vision for XIV before Yoshi P took over was "to be different from FFXI". It resulted in a poorly structured mess because being different from its predecessor was the only driving vision. Failing to learn from previous projects is not something to be repeated. Copying previous projects is not desirable either, but any good ideas from other games that fit well and could be built upon shouldn't be written off because it came from an older game.

[Lucavi]

Not at all, I just struggle to think of systems that worked in XI that are "modern" enough to still be used today, aside from excellent plot points like Raogrimm and the Ark Angels.

PVP was terrible, the combat system was limited, healing mechanics were elementary, utsusemi broke the game, damage scaling was poor, defensive stats were underwhelming, damage modifiers were wonky, stat-placement was silly (chr on drg AF; HOORAY~!!), weapons were unbalanced for the entire prime of the game's lifespan, and I could go on.

I'm sure there ARE many positive things that can be gleaned from XI, but at this current point in time I can't think of too many aside from "copy the general look and feel of XI, and the races". The party system was nice, I should say, but being shunted into using the party system to progress at any given level kind of takes away the positive steam and spin.

[Aleth]

There's certainly stuff to be gleaned from it. Though you're right there are flaws throughout the various parts of XI there was much that was great too. The job system for example, was a master-stroke. (XIV's implementation of it on top of classes with the armoury system seems a bit derp, but whatever - maybe they'll clean that up into something slicker for ARR). The well-defined job roles was great. The focus on co-operation. The reactive game-play (dispel that crab-buff, face away from that lizard, stun that casting mob...).

I'm not saying XI implemented all this stuff perfectly, and certainly they can be implemented better now, especially the battle stuff. I'm also fairly certain that many of the evils in FFXI were to do with the original producer not responding to feedback... XIV at release for that matter too - (and having said that his ideas in theory sound amazing, in practice they needed some work.)

My worry is the growing voice that nothing that was in XI should be in XIV. Which was the 1.0 plan.

Auction house in XI?
>THEN WE WON'T HAVE ONE!

Search functions?
>NOPE.

It started to go down into basic functionality too.

Camera that you can control?
>AHAHAHA NICE TRY!

So yeah, there were game-play ideas that worked in XI, as well as system and UI ones. There were also broken and bad ones. Enjoy waiting 'til JP midnight to continue CoP stoyline? I know I didn't...

I also think people use references to FFXI on the forums is because it is likely a shared language between people. I could use examples from more obscure (is that possible) games, but that would defeat the point.

Anyway, baby & bathwater.

[Aleth]

...PVP was terrible, the combat system was limited, healing mechanics were elementary, utsusemi broke the game, damage scaling was poor, defensive stats were underwhelming, damage modifiers were wonky, stat-placement was silly (chr on drg AF; HOORAY~!!), weapons were unbalanced for the entire prime of the game's lifespan, and I could go on...

These were balance issues in FFXI that could have been remedied, but were just never addressed. It didn't have to be that way. For some reason the devs didn't care to listen to feedback...

[Lucavi]

You say it "doesn't" have to be, and I ask "why should the average person care?" The non-SE fanboy doesn't care about the hows and whys. The non-BGer doesn't care about the hows and whys. Frankly, despite knowing some of the hows and whys, I, myself, don't care about the hows and whys. It is what it is, and it was what it was. Until we see otherwise, what "doesn't have to be this way" is irrelevant, because SE has shown no capability to change what shouldn't be until Yoshi-P entered the picture.

They have to do a lot more than fix the problem. They have to show everyone that they fixed the problem - everyone, not just those of us already interested. They're not going to make a profit simply catering to those who currently have an interest. That's the point I keep trying to nail home.

You say "balance issues." I say "SE issues" because most other games constantly engage in a struggle of balancing acts. SE did not, and, as far as we know (until the onset of Yoshi-Time~!) SE does not.

This is the perception they have to fight against. What an uphill climb.

[Aleth]

I'm talking about XI (and XIV 1.0) in regards to comparison for the few juicy game-play or system morsels that are worth a look. Especially if it's something ARR is lacking. It should also be the case that SE look outside of their own franchises for inspiration (as they originally did for XI).

As for "why the average person should care"... they shouldn't. The average person isn't doing any testing. The average person isn't part of ARRs dev team.

The dev team should care however, because cherry-picking the good parts of other projects and building on them and refining them is how progress is made. In any field. Even science. Especially science.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I agree. I posted something less wordy on alpha forums day 1, basically stating that we cannot let up on SE. We cannot cut them any slack in any department now. We've gotta manage-up and let them know when something sucks, why it sucks, and make suggestions. After that it's in their court to do it right.

[Aleth]

Spot on Grey.

It would be disappointing to see issues you noticed still in the release because no-one gave the devs a heads-up.

Edit: It has to be noted that there are people who think SE can do no wrong and that nothing must change. It's not constructive criticism and not helpful... I think honesty is what they need to improve.

[Lucavi]

I'm talking about XI (and XIV 1.0) in regards to comparison for the few juicy game-play or system morsels that are worth a look. Especially if it's something ARR is lacking. It should also be the case that SE look outside of their own franchises for inspiration (as they originally did for XI).

As for "why the average person should care"... they shouldn't. The average person isn't doing any testing. The average person isn't part of ARRs dev team.

The dev team should care however, because cherry-picking the good parts of other projects and building on them and refining them is how progress is made. In any field. Even science. Especially science.

I'm speaking less about the Alpha and more about the end product when I talk about SE's failures to fix their own game in the past. Obviously -some- of us are here to help them along the process of actually fixing and implementing things.

When its all said and done and the game launches, however, nobody outside of SE apologists are going to give three shits about whether or not SE could have fixed something beforehand. They're going to look at the product and, if it once again fails to deliver, are going to peace out once again.

[Aleth]

Hmm, I'm fairly sure I'm not an apologist...

I was pointing out there is some strange issue whereby some people want ARR to have nothing that resembles anything in XI as if it had nothing of value in it.

Don't get me wrong though, a carbon copy of XI with fancier graphics would not be progress either.


People who take either the view that ARR must be like XI or must have nothing in common with it are equally absurd.

[Lucavi]

I never said you were an apologist.

And ARR already has plenty in common with XI. Plenty. I don't know if you're in alpha or not, but just push a few directional buttons on your keyboard if you are. You'll feel back in 2004 instantly.

[Aleth]

Ah, fair enough.

As for 2004... I actually can't remember anything of note from that year at all.

I suppose I must have been playing FFXI...

[Aratharn]

While this is true, I've noticed a lot of people are throwing out the baby with the bathwater

Why does everyone keep saying this!

[Fievel]

Why does everyone keep saying this!

Because it's an amazing thing to say.

[Aleth]

Because I almost never get to say it so now I'm saying it like crazy. Also a whole load of other weird phrases that don't normally slide into conversation. And that's how the cookie crumbles.

Really though, we just like to imagine babies being launched around, like water-borne baby-like fire-works. Whoosh!

[Seravi Edalborez]

I agree. I posted something less wordy on alpha forums day 1, basically stating that we cannot let up on SE. We cannot cut them any slack in any department now. We've gotta manage-up and let them know when something sucks, why it sucks, and make suggestions. After that it's in their court to do it right.

I agree with this, but another issue is that SE sometimes seems TOO responsive to feedback. See: the whole road from "the new dev team" to current date. Not that it's all been good or bad either way, but they seem a bit too eager to appeal to everyone (or at least the biggest crowd they can get). Again, not good or bad but just amatter of whether or not they can handle it. Maybe this is just me seeing a pattern where there isn't one, generalizing, or assigning false blame. Feel free to correct me and tell me I'm a negative Nancy.

And of course feedback doesn't just come from "us". There's also the general "them" of the Lodestone OF. Which, again, may or may not have veered the development trend in this current direction.

[Alkar]

I agree with this, but another issue is that SE sometimes seems TOO responsive to feedback. See: the whole road from "the new dev team" to current date. Not that it's all been good or bad either way, but they seem a bit too eager to appeal to everyone (or at least the biggest crowd they can get). Again, not good or bad but just amatter of whether or not they can handle it. Maybe this is just me seeing a pattern where there isn't one, generalizing, or assigning false blame. Feel free to correct me and tell me I'm a negative Nancy.

And of course feedback doesn't just come from "us". There's also the general "them" of the Lodestone OF. Which, again, may or may not have veered the development trend in this current direction.

There's no pattern. It's obvious that Yoshida has a clear vision for this game and if certain people are being stupid over certain things he will (gently) call them out.

[fussel]

Not at all, I just struggle to think of systems that worked in XI that are "modern" enough to still be used today, aside from excellent plot points like Raogrimm and the Ark Angels.

Change Jobs, Kupo~~~~!

I also wonder why there are some features in really old MMOs that were good but don't make an appearance anymore.

Like an actual in-game forum... for each Clan/Guild/Linkshell. Like being able to drop stuff on the ground.

[Lucavi]

Job changing is doing more harm than good in some areas, like healing. I won't deny its convenience, but its limiting certain design for one reason or another.