Comments from the Devs

[Sephiroth]

You're free to run it and not switch at the end, or do the whole thing start to finish on DRG if you want. You can still beat it and you would have a lot of fun playing whatever class it is that you like.

I'll have fun beating AV in 14-15m (in 1.0) and getting ores/gear.

Come on now, you're doing these dungeons with 7 other people. If you want to continue getting invited to dungeon runs you'll play it how the guy organising it wants you to. If he thinks playing AV as a DRG is retarded you won't be going as a DRG. Likewise if he thinks MNK is perfect for the final boss you'll play MNK or GTFO.

I'm not convinced freedom to switch jobs within a dungeon adds strategy, I think it removes it because you just pick the best DD job for any given situation rather than a combination that works.

I suppose my hate for it is more towards "burn" type setups where everyone who isn't healing or tanking switches to MNK or whatever, rather than the ability to switch at all. There's no strategy in burn setups and that's why people do it, because it's the easiest route.

This type of shit is also bad for the game because not everyone has MNK leveled, we don't need the "Level X job or you can't come" making a return. Get rid of the burn and keep the switching and I can switch between 2-3 jobs I'm good at depending on the situation, rather than a gimp just because I have to.

Also my "hate" for MNK isn't so much hate, it's just H2H style combat isn't something I'm a fan of. But it may be worth checking out in ARR as they say it's undergoing the most changes.

[Sign]

lol the OF is bitching about backpedaling.... Fucking idiots.

Backpedaling as in a character animation or have the dev's changed their stance on something?

[Lucavi]

Presumably the animation.

[Elcura]

If you get rid of any "burn" type party you get rid of them all. I personally hate having to do the majority of content on BLM because BLM is boring as fuck. I agree with you in the sense that not being able to switch mid-dungeon means you need to consider your party as a whole, not what jobs people have for the current fight.

I could change my mind on this if 2.0 handles job switches and abilities cleanly. But as we're basing this a little on 1.0s framework it was messy then and we'd probably be better off if dungeons were designed for a single role.

[Sephiroth]

BLM is my job of choice these days since they gave BRD to ARC but I wouldn't miss BLM burns, which is effectively what 90% of AV has been on the runs I've done. BLM burn until boss then MNK burn. It just screams of lack of strategy, yet it's the most efficient. Could you get under 17 minutes without that tactic? Maybe it's just bad dungeon design, I don't know.

[Churchill]

We would just do every dungeon as WHM Tank BRD BLMx5 if you couldn't switch.

That's what you're all asking for. If they made a dungeon strong to magic, you'd do the whole thing WHM Tank BRD DRGx5.

Also, you do realize that MNK is going to be even better for burns because their combos will be relentless, gaining more damage the more they are chained? You can't get rid of the burn because people who want to be super awesome rockstars will always try to do something better or faster. If they didn't change AV/CC at all and just made 5 chests always drop, do you think I'm going to do the dungeon in 30m for a fun run where everyone shits rainbows or do you think maybe I'll just keep doing it in 15m because it's easy as shit.

If you want to do it differently, then get like minded people and do it differently. You're all posting here, make your group and go do it. DRG could always do Mistress, it just couldn't kill Mistress in 2m - meaning it was always fine for a 25m SR. This is the inherent difference between the two melee jobs, one was good at longer fights and one was unmatched in short ones. I think that's what their new combo system for MNK aims to address, making the decision between the two more dependent on stun or weaknesses rather than a) can i get to PS3 --> b) use mnk

As far as dungeons themselves, some of us already used DRG for CC for a large portion of the dungeon and I'm pretty sure you could do AV the same way. The only problem with that is that it took an incredibly amount of experience and timing to do it properly so it wouldn't be a magical shitting rainbows fun run.

[Alkimi]

Could you get under 17 minutes without that tactic? Maybe it's just bad dungeon design, I don't know.

You could probably forego the job changes and kill Miser with BLMs but it would add a good 90 secs+ to the fight so it would be close. I wouldn't mind that much if they locked jobs for dungeons in 2.0. Besides, taking DDs shouldn't be the handicap it used to be since they don't have to build TP anymore to do AoE weapon skills.

[Lordender]

Only Lootwhores would want non-job locking in instanced content. You should be locked into that job on entry for that run and only allowed to roll need on that jobs gear that you're locked on. Greed should only be allowed on other class gear you would want. That makes it to where people on that current job have priority over people who aren't as that job on the run.

Don't need a system where BRDS are rolling need on WAR gear because it is flavor of the month.

[Niiro]

That has nothing to do with job swapping mid dungeon and basing a need/greed system on current job only would be fucking retarded.

One shouldn't be excluded from lotting on gear they want for their favorite [DD/tank/BLM] because they have to frequently come on WHM for the benefit of the group.

[Churchill]

Yeah what a retarded argument.

[Elcura]

We would just do every dungeon as WHM Tank BRD BLMx5 if you couldn't switch.

If we have to resort to that in 2.0 then obviously they've failed to create good classes or good dungeons.

That's what you're all asking for. If they made a dungeon strong to magic, you'd do the whole thing WHM Tank BRD DRGx5.

Try reading what we're saying, that's not at all what we're asking for. And if they made a dungeon strong to just magic, then they've failed once again.

Also, you do realize that MNK is going to be even better for burns because their combos will be relentless, gaining more damage the more they are chained? You can't get rid of the burn because people who want to be super awesome rockstars will always try to do something better or faster. If they didn't change AV/CC at all and just made 5 chests always drop, do you think I'm going to do the dungeon in 30m for a fun run where everyone shits rainbows or do you think maybe I'll just keep doing it in 15m because it's easy as shit.

I don't care if MNKs are super amazingly awesome for everything in 2.0, and having 5x MNKs is always the best combination ever. You know why? Because I want this game to actually be good and fun and have diverse party setups because everything is useful and can be effective. I don't want a single job to have dominance because that's boring. All jobs need to have a role, and all fights need to be designed for those roles. So it wouldn't matter if you had a MNK, 2 DRG and a BLM, or a DRG, 2 BLMs and a MNK, because all of them are needed to succeed in one way or another. The only difference is the players preference and skill.

If you want to focus on having 1 job that's amazingly equipped and you play it like a god then all the more power to you. If you want to equip all jobs, play them all and don't care what job you are for any event, great as well!

The point is that excessive stacking of a single job is bad, no matter what the purpose. I love playing MNK, and I played it at every possible opportunity to great success but what's the point of solely focusing on a job if all you get to do is a 5 minute fight at the end of a dungeon? It certainly doesn't feel good that people who don't like or care about MNK are being forced to play it and gear it seriously because the dungeons are designed to force communities into such habits.

It would be better design if that MNK could run the whole dungeon as effectively as he could as just a MNK, or as a MNK turn BLM turn MNK.

There's a difference between doing things to be successful and doing things to be a unique snowflake. If you want to be successful in dungeons, you follow a party make-up that can be successful. Success in dungeons was all about speed, and speed in 1.0 is all about class stacking. However, speed runs aren't the only way to make a dungeon and certainly not the best for XIV so thinking in that framework can only be destructive.

If you want to do it differently, then get like minded people and do it differently. You're all posting here, make your group and go do it. DRG could always do Mistress, it just couldn't kill Mistress in 2m - meaning it was always fine for a 25m SR. This is the inherent difference between the two melee jobs, one was good at longer fights and one was unmatched in short ones. I think that's what their new combo system for MNK aims to address, making the decision between the two more dependent on stun or weaknesses rather than a) can i get to PS3 --> b) use mnk

Again, whether it's doable isn't the issue. The issue is that although you don't care and you'll do anything to succeed -- and bear with me because this could blow your mind -- it just isn't fun. And I'm not talking about fun for just you and me, I mean generally. Your problem is that you don't care who the audience is and who you can cater to, the solution is to make it so that no matter what play style you have you can succeed.

I don't want to do it differently for the sake of being different, I want to do it differently because what 1.0 had was flawed and not fun.

As far as dungeons themselves, some of us already used DRG for CC for a large portion of the dungeon and I'm pretty sure you could do AV the same way. The only problem with that is that it took an incredibly amount of experience and timing to do it properly so it wouldn't be a magical shitting rainbows fun run.

The only problem with the dungeons was how poorly they were designed and how badly the objectives were assigned. Everything that came from that is a byproduct of having to deal with that shit.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Only Lootwhores would want non-job locking in instanced content. You should be locked into that job on entry for that run and only allowed to roll need on that jobs gear that you're locked on. Greed should only be allowed on other class gear you would want. That makes it to where people on that current job have priority over people who aren't as that job on the run.

Don't need a system where BRDS are rolling need on WAR gear because it is flavor of the month.

This is a very shallow argument. You realize that when you're spamming content, eventually the BRD will just greed on WAR gear right? "Priority" only lasts so long.

Now if you roll with pugs into every raid, then I wish you luck. People like you will just complain that they've been in the instance 100 times and some dude on <same class as you> came once and beat your roll OR that you had to fill a certain role in your group and that guy playing <same class you would have played> took "your gear". Heard it a million times already.

Come on man, think harder.

[Lucavi]

Well said, Elcura. I have nothing to add save for reinforcing the fact that 1.0's dungeons and raids were a joke compared to not only what currently exists in today's market, but also compared to what has existed for nearly 6 years now. There's always a better way to do things.

Hopefully beta will turn a lot of heads in terms of how far SE has come in regards to dungeon design.

[solracht]

With the way things were in 1.0, I feel like they turned the class system into a weakness rather than a strength. The system should be "I can switch classes to play something different without having to start over", rather than "I have to grind every class to the cap and then play what the situation calls for", imo.

Ideally every class should be complex and balanced enough so it's usable in any situation, and then it should have different ways to perform multiple roles (aoe, single target, burst, etc) in its own way. The problem right now is classes are too one-dimensional and clearly designed with very specific roles and situations in mind.

Example: You should be able to play Monk because you like punching things and you like the way it plays, and then you have different stances (or skills) to use depending whether you need AoE or sustained damage. You could accomplish this with classes and multiple jobs, I really don't care about the specifics.


Either way, what I definitely want to avoid is the scenario where you need to grind three different classes to the cap just to fill a role (like DPS in 1.0) because the classes are so one-dimensional. While I personally don't mind this (otherwise I wouldn't have played XI and 1.0), I honestly don't think it's going to fly in 2013, and I'd like to see this game get at least one expansion.

EDIT: Clarified something.

[Niiro]

The way things are, I feel like they're turning the entire class system into a weakness rather than a strength. The system should be "I can switch to play something different without having to start over", rather than "I have to grind every class to the cap and then play what the situation calls for", imo.

It's clearly been a concern of theirs to do just that, Garuda and Skirmish didn't enforce job diversity and restrict job changing by accident.

AV/CC are the most cited examples of failure but they weren't going to completely redesign the already made events for a game that was about to be scrapped.

[vadre]

What about job-unique buffs and/or the combination buffs Yoshi was talking about a while back (bring x job + y job + z job for a certain buff), do you think those (and limit break combos) will be enough to make people bring a wider variety of jobs?

Also, I'm for job locking in dungeons too, as interesting as it might sound to have a sort of paradigm shift system with different jobs going on, it wouldnt work for the reasons above

[Dein]

One of the ways games like WoW have tried to promote diversity in groups and raids is by spreading out buffs between classes so yes that's a way to help but good class balance should be the main focus.

[Lokus]

This job balancing topic is just a different shade of "WHM is the only healer and SE should make a different yet equally effective healing class". If SE balances all the DD to be equal in performance, how they actually function should be the thing that separates them. BLMx5 should be just as effective as DRGx5 or DRG, MNK, BLM, BRD, WAR. Right now, all the DD more or less provide the same play style with the only difference really being the aesthetics and ranged or melee. But it's a tough balancing act for SE as long as they decide to put things like magic resistance, evasive enemies, or bonuses to certain damage types which will always favor one job over another. If they decide to keep those elements then they need to make -every- encounter provide challenges that must be overcome with a variety of job types (Garuda) and doesn't outright make certain jobs safer than others (Deepvoid Slave).

On another note, I kinda like job switching in dungeons to be honest, just another shade of Paradigm Shift from XIII or changing dress spheres in X-2.

[Churchill]

If we take Garuda as an example, it's a very easy and straightforward fight. It requires your damage dealers be able to output a certain amount of damage, sure, but until there was a video released of a new BLM zerg, people weren't able to beat this any other way. Is it a problem of the classes being imbalanced? Not really, I've beat Garuda on every job - killing one set of sisters. I've beat Garuda by not going Phase1->3 and didn't have a death in the process.

If it can be beat as intended, on every job in the game, then it is balanced. If you want to complain about imbalance, then you're complaining about you/your friends not being very good and relying on a non-100% win strategy.

Slave is also not really an issue, trick him into falling over, repeat. The jobs do function differently though, and I don't really see MNK or DRG as being at odds with each other, I just prefer one or the other given a different situation. Doesn't mean you can't beat something on the non-preferred role, but the way the work dictated (during speed runs) that you use the correct one. There was nothing in the game that couldn't be beat within the 5C limit or instanced time limit on a multitude of jobs - it was just harder because a large portion of people that play 14 are just not very good.

[Lordender]

This is a very shallow argument. You realize that when you're spamming content, eventually the BRD will just greed on WAR gear right? "Priority" only lasts so long.

Now if you roll with pugs into every raid, then I wish you luck. People like you will just complain that they've been in the instance 100 times and some dude on <same class as you> came once and beat your roll OR that you had to fill a certain role in your group and that guy playing <same class you would have played> took "your gear". Heard it a million times already.

Come on man, think harder.

I speak from experience, when Blizzard put in Cross server Dungeons, it was awful because there wasn't a set rule on who could lot on what. You had Paladins lotting on healing mail, some lotted on cloth, when they're a plate class, it was just a stupid system until they started putting more and more restrictions on who could lot what.