Comments from the Devs

[arus2001]

Shit, I must've been playing Metroid, Sonic, Mega Man, and all those other games that have no specific fall damage mechanic wrong. Or they made it a point to make it obvious that falling was bad, like spikes, lava, and other things that'd eat you. People still enjoyed these games, right?

Like I implied, you're basically chasing phantom exploits. Look at the recent teaser vid, for example, and you get that dungeon where people can look down to other areas within. Let's say, for whatever reason, the Soulflayer is at the very bottom and someone could just jump from entrance to him. That's totally horrible, right? Except for the part he's locked behind 3 seals that you can't just jump to and would need to go through the dungeon for. Jumping down would do you no good. Killing you just because would do no good because unless everyone else jumped down with you, you'll probably get killed trying to run back to your party if the area isn't cleared. So you'd still get your "consequence" there.

Open world context is more subjective. Not all walls or fences have to be giant slabs of rock or ugly planks of wood. If you're at a coast, and people can swim in the game, have a fatigue timer kick in once they exceed the expected. That timer expires, you lose control and float back toward the shore via current. Granted, in Rift's case, they just kill you for similar. Why? They simply hadn't designed areas past those given points, basically punishing people for exploring. Hence the whole people need to cope with the fact these worlds have edges.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Indeed. It all comes back to their implementation and plans for the utilization of jumping as well. If they have a desire to use it within raids as a true mechanic (use your imagination) then it should have certain consequences. More often than not it is just an "idiot check" in those situations anyway. Nonetheless jumping and falling damage are inseparable in the current environment and should be implemented otherwise.

[Grey Jorildyn]

lolMetroid. Here come the strawman cross-genre comparisons.

Not all games are built the same. Yeah, they do that on purpose.

[arus2001]

Forgive me for not embracing the "People need to be punished!" purpose just because you feel like they should be. But as you said, not all games are built the same, nor have I seen anything that demands XIV take fall damage up.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Not all consequences are punishments. Just go play some mmos and you'll get the sense about falling damage. It's not always so easy to explain. First-hand experience is sometimes required to see the purpose of a concept.

One thing that comes to mind is EV in TOR. The final boss had a phase where the raid had to fall down these platforms to reach the bottom of a pit where the boss went. If you jumped off one to hit the next you took extra damage due to height increase. But even just dropping off one ledge to the next, you took some damage and the raid had to stop for an aoe cure once or twice on the way down and you had to do it quickly while also killing these adds on the platforms. It was both an idiot check and a way to whittle player resources (hp, mana, patience, etc) in a boss fight that otherwise made you have to move fast. The fall damage made an impact on the battle and showed how a developer can use it to antagonize a raid party.

Like I said though, first-hand experience trumps all. Creative thinking helps too.

[Sup3rB4d]

Not all consequences are punishments. Just go play some mmos and you'll get the sense about falling damage. It's not always so easy to explain. First-hand experience is sometimes required to see the purpose of a concept.

He plays a lot of mmos and apparently dies from falling a lot in rift.

[Burningthought]

Forgive me for not embracing the "People need to be punished!" purpose just because you feel like they should be. But as you said, not all games are built the same, nor have I seen anything that demands XIV take fall damage up.

I think it's pretty simple to explain bro. I have seen fall damage in so many mmos, that playing ARR and not taking any fall damage when jumping from a ledge just seems weird and unnatural.

[Pooky]

Not all consequences are punishments. Just go play some mmos and you'll get the sense about falling damage. It's not always so easy to explain. First-hand experience is sometimes required to see the purpose of a concept.

One thing that comes to mind is EV in TOR. The final boss had a phase where the raid had to fall down these platforms to reach the bottom of a pit where the boss went. If you jumped off one to hit the next you took extra damage due to height increase. But even just dropping off one ledge to the next, you took some damage and the raid had to stop for an aoe cure once or twice on the way down and you had to do it quickly while also killing these adds on the platforms. It was both an idiot check and a way to whittle player resources (hp, mana, patience, etc) in a boss fight that otherwise made you have to move fast. The fall damage made an impact on the battle and showed how a developer can use it to antagonize a raid party.

Like I said though, first-hand experience trumps all. Creative thinking helps too.

Ugh. Why would you remind me of that? I fucking hated that boss, between the frogger bit and the stupid bugs...Ugh.

[arus2001]

Been there, done that, still not sold.

In general, death tends to carry penalties: EXP loss, weakness, repair fees, corpse retrievals, and then some.

It's one thing when your HP falls to 0 due to a fight going sour. It's another when you think you can run along some terrain that isn't steeply sloped, only to suddenly find yourself rocketing down a hill and dying because an otherwise innocuous location was deemed impassible, maybe not even on purpose. There's usually no method to slow or even halt your fall, it's just splat, uded or close to it. No matter how you spin it, fall damage is a punishment. Sometimes just running back to where you were, if possible, is punishment enough. If someone wants to get angry someone just gets there more quickly by taking a shortcut, they're just being petty.

I think it's pretty simple to explain bro. I have seen fall damage in so many mmos, that playing ARR and not taking any fall damage when jumping from a ledge just seems weird and unnatural.

I'd offer the possibility of simply being conditioned into believing it needs to be there, not unlike how some people believe an MMO needs steep grinds to survive.

He plays a lot of mmos and apparently dies from falling a lot in rift.

While it happens on occasion, my complaint there was more of how sensitive the fall mechanic is. When you've only fallen a body length and lose 20% of your HP, it's too much.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Yeah but it is also a good example of fall damage as a raid mechanic. Like the puddles in AV only more dynamic and unavoidable.

There are ways to simulate "slowing the fall". I think traits that reduce fall damage for certain classes were already mentioned. That doesn't have to be the only way either. You can implement these things in many ways even with current class/player progression models. As I mentioned--creative thinking. I'm not trying to sell you on anything, just educate. You're an adult and can reach your own conclusions. Just leave Samus and Megaman out of it mmk?

[Pooky]

Been there, done that, still not sold.

In general, death tends to carry penalties: EXP loss, weakness, repair fees, corpse retrievals, and then some.

It's one thing when your HP falls to 0 due to a fight going sour. It's another when you think you can run along some terrain that isn't steeply sloped, only to suddenly find yourself rocketing down a hill and dying because an otherwise innocuous location was deemed impassible, maybe not even on purpose. There's usually no method to slow or even halt your fall, it's just splat, uded or close to it. No matter how you spin it, fall damage is a punishment. Sometimes just running back to where you were, if possible, is punishment enough. If someone wants to get angry someone just gets there more quickly by taking a shortcut, they're just being petty.

Oh my god stop whining. We get it, you don't like fall damage. God forbid you get punished if you fuck up somehow. Hey while we're at it, lets just remove death from the game entirely right? I mean its just a punishment. Why should there be a punishment for not killing X mob in the right way, or in short enough time? Why should you have to lose money when you buy something from the AH? That's just punishing the player for acquiring items. Why should your armor lose durability? That's just punishment for fighting mobs right? Ect Ect.

You're seriously approaching OF levels of dumb. Fall damage is happening, regardless of your dislike or understanding. Deal with it.

[arus2001]

I dunno, I like thinking about Samus...

But just think of me playing devil's advocate in educating from the other side. I know FFXI bred a certain degree of sadomasochist, but there are different paths to the same destination. In this case, perhaps quite literally.

[Elcura]

Shit, I must've been playing Metroid, Sonic, Mega Man, and all those other games that have no specific fall damage mechanic wrong. Or they made it a point to make it obvious that falling was bad, like spikes, lava, and other things that'd eat you. People still enjoyed these games, right?

Are you actually making this comparison? Because I hope you know how stupid it is. Ignoring that for a moment the difference between those things and fall damage is...nothing! Consequence is consequence, doesn't matter how it's implemented. You don't take fall damage because it isn't necessary to do so for the game (ignoring 2D vs 3D design).

And again you're missing the point because these games punished you relentlessly (mostly MM) for making mistakes, only a mistake in these games was not falling from a great height. This comparison makes me realise you have no clue what you're arguing about or perhaps even what we're talking about.

And I'll do like Lucavi for one more point, fall damage is supposed to be a punishment. Or, a....CONSEQUENCE!

[Niiro]

Playing "devil's advocate" to a largely sound, reasonable, logical argument is called being retarded.

Or as I like to say, playing "spider-dan's advocate".

[Pooky]

I dunno, I like thinking about Samus...

But just think of me playing devil's advocate in educating from the other side. I know FFXI bred a certain degree of sadomasochist, but there are different paths to the same destination. In this case, perhaps quite literally.

[arus2001]

So why is it necessary for XIV to function?

[Pooky]

So why is it necessary for XIV to function?

FFXIV could function without death, durability loss or gil too. Why should we put those in?

Seriously, your argument is bad.

[Kurokikaze]

I think playing devils advocate to a reasonable request should be a bannable/infraction-worthy offense.

Can you guys agree to disagree and drop the stupid shit? I know theres downtime and we're lacking shit to talk about but the last few pages have gone in circle/full retard... you never go full retard.

[SilverBreeze]

I think playing devils advocate to a reasonable request should be a bannable/infraction-worthy offense.

Can you guys agree to disagree and drop the stupid shit? I know theres downtime and we're lacking shit to talk about but the last few pages have gone in circle/full retard... you never go full retard.

I agree, there's been enough of this.

[Pooky]

I think playing devils advocate to a reasonable request should be a bannable/infraction-worthy offense.

I second this.