Comments from the Devs

[solracht]

It's not really the speed, it's the contribution from auto-attack that's really different.

Auto-attack matters a lot in FFXI and FFXIV, and it's actually what the combat mostly builds off for a lot of jobs (since it gives you TP to use the powerful skills). In other MMORPGs, auto-attack is mostly passive damage that your character deals, while you perform active abilities that may or may not be tied to some resource system, but these skills are usually not related to auto-attack in any way.

EDIT: Beaten by Grey.

[Lucavi]

Could you expand on how it falls in line with today's MMO? How much faster than ffxi do other MMO's auto attack?

Umm... Okay, take a Dark Knight Scythe in XI, then take how many abilities a Dark Knight has in XI. Lets just say, the Dark Knight is at level 20, and is in an XP party, so is only going to use the skills that will actually benefit its DoT. The Dark is attacking once every, maybe 5 seconds, and the only real skill the Dark is using would be weaponskills. Compare that to the rest of the world's MMOs, that by level 20, not only are the "slow-hitting" classes attacking at least 3 times faster without pressing a single button, but also have at least 5-7 skills to use at any given time, allowing for more attacks. Reactionary skills, follow-up skills (skills that only fire off once criteria has been met, like a critical hit, a miss, or a block), instant attacks, and attacks that have long cooldowns. FF moves at a snail's pace compared to the rest of the world.

Even at Max level, its still slow compared to other games. The average non-casting job only has maybe 2-4 skills to choose from at a given time, and all the haste gear in the world (including double/triple attacks) aren't going to bring the speed up to match any modern MMO. You simply don't have enough skills in a game like XI to to compare to a modern game, where there's just about always something to attack with, and always something to look out for in order to squeeze out extra damage. Choosing one skill over another (like, say, choosing a standard instant ability over a limited-time reactionary ability) will typically lead to lower damage in the long run, so part of the challenge (putting aside boss mechanics that involve actual movement, ect.) is choosing the right attack or ability at the right time, while making sure you're always pressing something.

That's the easiest way I can compare it, which is to say that there can really be no comparison. The two are worlds apart. XI has its own style, reminiscent of days gone by, and while XIV tried to modernize the game by speeding up attacks and making sure people were pressing buttons to fight, taking out Auto Attack was not the way to do it, because the game still lacks a wide variety of different attacks. There are very few reactionary attacks in the game, for example.

To provide a better example, I'll take my Drg/sam back in the peak of ToAU, complete with the best gear post-Nyuzul. A typical battle involved popping hasso >> two jumps >> third eye >> Penta >> med >> wait 3-4 seconds >> Penta >> third eye, and then basically auto-attacking until a cooldown refreshed. A lot of classes did a lot less than that in close-range combat in XI.

With my 42 Champion in Rift, simply in beta, I was balancing between no less than 8 constant abilities, with another 8 that I used situationally. I built combo points by alternating between one of four abilities, depending on whether I needed single target or AOE damage, then used an ability to buff a finisher, then used a finisher, then re-built combo points by continuously alternating between those abilities. None of this takes into account my 4 reactionary abilities, which ranged from dodging an attack to scoring a critical hit to killing an enemy to my pet scoring a critical hit, and I even had follow-ups FOR follow-ups (if I score a crit with X follow-up, I can now follow-up with Y). Many of those follow-up attacks also built up combo points, allowing for me to use a finisher in between using follow-up attacks, since some follow-ups work on a set amount of time, instead of a "must be pressed NOW" system.

Mages work in a similar fashion. As I said before, its just hard to compare the two if you're looking at it in terms of speed of battle, the pace of battle, and the amount of thinking that one needs to perform to maximize their damage potential. In PVP it takes a completely different tone because you now have to judge where you are vs. allies, enemies, what the objectives of the match are, and what YOUR objective is going to be (killing someone vs. saving a friend vs. delaying the enemy through snares/stuns vs. sacrificing the body to help others, ect.). There's just a lot more thought, and it has to be quick thought, or you're getting left behind.

[Hyan]

Added the posts to the OP.

Matsui, you suck.

I have looked over all of the great number of elements and at the current stage feel that without implementing auto-attack that the future battle system would be impossible.

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright.

Anyway, it seems auto-attack will not be implemented before until part deux of the battle system adjustments, after everything else has been prepared.

[Alderaan]

Awesome post

Visuals to back those statements. Once you play an MMO that allows for skill usage while moving, i promise you you'll never go back. This is the kind of combat and mechanics i wanted to see in a FF MMO. Incorporate this into the art and style off FF and i'd be there forever.

[Hyan]

Once you play an MMO that allows for skill usage while moving, i promise you you'll never go back.

Yet many people do. We know by now that you put much emphasis on being able to move, it is not the same case for everyone out there. What is so hard to understand about this?

I don't see how the game would benefit from this change.

[Kensaki]

God people running around like bloody brain cases while attacking making the mob the group is trying to attack move around and ruining direction based attacks etc. Rooting people is fine I've played Wow and Rift no thanks.

[Corrderio]

Meh, I'm not really sure how I feel about their view for auto attack. I didn't think the manual input was as bad as everyone was raging about.

[Gokulo]

Apparently they will be previewing new NMs along with screens soon.

[Tomino]

Then "soon" can't be soon enough

[Gulkeeva]

I'm looking forward to auto attack myself, some classes like say... pug/mrd/lnc you just basically sit there going .... 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1
Like when you get victimize 2 and want to throw in a 600-800 damage attack, so you need 3000TP or simian thrash for max damage.

or the mrd+lnc miss-a-thon and the basic attack uses a decent amount of TP so your watching the stamina bar crawl (excluding lnc because they cheat )

Or in some cases you don't even get to use it, like gladiator tanking or very rarely like pug tanking just to get the light punch buff. Where "surviving" and holding threat is more important then swinging your sword about.

Although I do still keep some attack abilities, in case the group needs some extra dps or...
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/989...=1#post4513697
someone needs their "daily death" ... right Elcura!? awwwww yeeeaaaahhhh!
(Gladiator... the #1 choice in your MPK needs)

[Alderaan]

Yet many people do. We know by now that you put much emphasis on being able to move, it is not the same case for everyone out there. What is so hard to understand about this?

I don't see how the game would benefit from this change.

Nothing is the case for everyone out there. What i guess i don't understand is how limiting your character can be looked at as ok. Having options is the key. If you want to stand there then i'm fine with it, but i'd like the option to be able to move. Why are FF players so damn stubborn to anything that might make the game better even if they have the option to not use it? I've come to terms with how ignorant i was when i played XI but i'm afraid many still cling onto that ideal that as long as it's different for the sake of being different, then it's better and they're better for it. It's not rocket surgery. Why is this so difficult to understand? I enjoy your posts even if i disagree with 90% of them but c'mon man.

I do admit that there are many things in modern MMO's that i don't like. Things like flying mounts and cross server dungeons completely destroy immersion and ruin server communities. Things like fluid combat and an intuitive UI with as many options as possible are things that are done correctly. It's all about balance and you can't please everyone, but you have to at least have an open mind when it comes to options and what is possible.

[solracht]

Why are FF players so damn stubborn to anything that might make the game better even if they have the option to not use it? I've come to terms with how ignorant i was when i played XI but i'm afraid many still cling onto that ideal that as long as it's different for the sake of being different, then it's better and they're better for it.

I've been asking this to myself ever since I started posting in the official forums (along with why do I bother posting there).

Personally I think if done right, a system without as much freedom of movement as in Rift/Warcraft could be fun too, but the way FFXI/FFXIV do it is definitely not it for me. I'm thinking more in terms of the abilities themselves being what move your character, rather you being able to freely move the way you want while using them. Sort of how offline 3rd person action games work, but I don't think MMOs will get there anytime soon (if ever).

[Grey Jorildyn]

I agree with Ald on his points as well. Mobility in combat can only raise the ceiling. How it is utilized is another story but when it comes down to it there is more potential for challenging encounters when there is mobility. XI/XIV are saturated with stationary events (speaking pre-abyssea since that is where my core knowledge lies). It is really quite boring at times. It's no surprise that Tera has such a large following because of its mobile combat features.

If you recall back to XI battles were about standing and being able to absorb a lot of damage (hurricane wing) unless you could stand elsewhere to avoid it (touchdown). There was very little run-in/run-out stuff. When Odin gave us that, suddenly the average player was fucked and couldn't grasp it. It's a game design choice that inevitably programs players who cannot adapt, which is the average player. Over time it even lowers "player intelligence". The good/great players adjust quickly but the rest fail.

[Hyan]

I'm looking forward to auto attack myself, some classes like say... pug/mrd/lnc you just basically sit there going .... 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1

Seriously, this is my biggest gripe about justifying AA. If the encounters don't require you to use your skill arsenal, nor are your skills functional in a way that the game encourages you to make use of their special characteristics, of course you'll just end up spamming 1 and 2. Only thing that AA changes is that now you can pick your nose while pressing 2 once in a while. Or only because you're so goddamn bored you may press 3 and 6 once in a while although that's not necessary in the least because the mobs are easy or too hard.

And this was just my low rank experience, but I never used just the basic attack. Maybe it was unnecessary to use them, but that's not the fault of manual user input.

In addition, other "pro-AA" arguments do tend to sound like excuses to make a half-assed fix to a problem that deserves more attention. These include A) gamepad users having to go back to action 1 all the time (how 'bout some gamepad-friendly action bars like a grid instead?), B) "I want to communicate"- voice chat anyone? And it's silly to think they'd make the game less involving for people to be able to use the game as their 3D MSN. C) Less button inputs = less server lag (or they could actually improve the code and the hardware instead, you know?).

Nothing against you Gulk, it's just a personal gripe of mine ;o.

Having options is the key.

I'd like to throw you another question. How many options must you have for it to be looked as ok? We do not live in a world where everything is possible and nothing has to be sacrificed for another feature to be implemented. If S-E can squeeze enough out of their team to allow for free movement, I don't have a problem with that, but I personally put much more value on other aspects of the game that you may not care about. If they can make us both happy, then they should, but that is simply not too realistic and compromises need to be made. You may feel that the animations and the over-all visuals can be sacrificed for you to be able to control your character, I would much rather have great eyepleasing visuals during the gameplay and the freedom of movement to be secondary (yet not to the extreme, as in basic attacks and things like engage/disengage animation to allow me to move freely).

It's not only about being different for the sake of being different, in fact FF is known for it's great visuals and rather limiting gameplay- it's simply from which perspective you look at it. MMO players may want more freedom, FF players may want to look at great visuals and simply be entertained at what the game throws at you, even if as a game it may fall a bit short. Either they are similar to other MMO's and are different from the rest of their franchise, or they are similar to the franchise and different to the rest of the MMO's. Middleground is obviously not an impossibility and IMO that is what making some animations free while leaving some others left as-is (while maybe speeding up the frames) would accomplish.

Obviously things like UI are less subjective and more clear as to what they should accomplish- at least for keyboard+mouse. But in the aforementioned case there are two camps, not just one (maybe even more)- and both are "right" in their own way.

It all comes down to what you want from the game. We could argue about whether MMO's should be made with truly challenging content in mind, even- hell, the games are usually filled with crap before you even get to the challenging stuff, and its not exactly that userfriendly of a process. If you want challenge, I bet there are better alternatives out there. And when we add RPG to the mix, who is looking for a legitimate challenge in those kind of games in the first place? What is more generally preferred franchise in the genre? FF that excels in everything non-gameplay or Tales of that has excellent gameplay? And even if somebody plays both of these games, he may still prefer FF regardless of what the gameplay offers you.

[Groovebox]

Keep in mind, if you're a gamepad user.. it is not as simple as "hitting 1 and then hitting another number sometimes". We have to click the dpad a number of times to get to a skill, then click back over to the 1 slot. It sucks, plain and simple. Game will only survive with a succesful console release, gonna have to deal with it.

[Alderaan]

Nothing needs to be sacrificed to have a great looking game and fluid combat, except if you want large scale events with hundreds of people on screen. Look at TERA.

[Hyan]

Nothing needs to be sacrificed to have a great looking game and fluid combat, except if you want large scale events with hundreds of people on screen. Look at TERA.

Yet something is missing from that game. Which one would you play if both it and XIV played similarly? Maybe it's just me, but the choice is quite obvious. I'd even prefer FF with a worse gameplay, but that proves nothing sadly considering my status over here. I don't think I'm alone though.

Keep in mind, if you're a gamepad user.. it is not as simple as "hitting 1 and then hitting another number sometimes". We have to click the dpad a number of times to get to a skill, then click back over to the 1 slot.

3x3 grid action bar, and normal attack assigned to it's own button. It's not really any harder to fix.

Can even make it so you can choose the skill with the analog stick (tilt it towards the skill you want to use). The number of inputs basically reduced to one/two.

[Groovebox]

Yet something is missing from that game. Which one would you play if both it and XIV played similarly? Maybe it's just me, but the choice is quite obvious. I'd even prefer FF with a worse gameplay, but that proves nothing sadly considering my status over here. I don't think I'm alone though.



3x3 grid action bar, and normal attack assigned to it's own button. It's not really any harder to fix.

Can even make it so you can choose the skill with the analog stick (tilt it towards the skill you want to use). The number of inputs basically reduced to one/two.

Or you can streamline it with an AA system. You start using the analog sticks for combat, and you're going to have camera issues. 3x3 is a good idea, but matsui does this shit for a living, and has experience... we don't.

[Hyan]

The current bar would still be quite non-userfriendly for gamepad users, and I bet out of the two changing the UI would prove to be far more effective and sensible solution (that doesn't involve huge revamps to make the combat work with the AA).

Surely, Tanaka did this shit for a living too, so we should just trust his knowledge and stop criticizing... hmm, how did that go?

[Groovebox]

The current bar would still be quite non-userfriendly for gamepad users, and I bet out of the two changing the UI would prove to be far more effective and sensible solution (that doesn't involve huge revamps to make the combat work with the AA).

Surely, Tanaka did this shit for a living too, so we should just trust his knowledge and stop criticizing... hmm, how did that go?

We told him in alpha/beta, he chose not to listen. The first poll showed that the greater majority of players welcome drastic changes to the systems already in place... so this is them doing what the majority wants. Really, at this point, they can't make the game any worse.