Comments from the Devs

[Waraji]

What a glorious day when seals are random to the entire group of participants, they have a 0.01% drop rate, the FATE for Hamlet spawns once an hour, and the tears begin to well.

>>It was my privilege.

Stand around afk, come back to FATE Hamlet, Hit One Mob, Heal One PC/NPC, go back to AFK.

>>???
>>Profit.

(this is joke post.)

[shepardG]

FIGMS, lol

[Rasa]

I used to think to myself "yeah, just add the opening world grinding if people want it. It doesn't hurt anyone. Besides it would add one more way to exp in addition to all the other ways."

Then I thought about it for awhile and changed my mind. It does hurt everyone. It hurts the evolution of the FF online community. Fuck open world grinding as an option. Yoshi is right not to include it. Aside from it being a total cave-in to the OF morons, it would be irresponsible for him to include it into his game since it is a huge step backwards. He wants to not only make a modern game but bring the community with him, show them the proverbial light as-it-were.

The idea is flat out incompatible with quest leveling. When we create new stuff we replace "legacy" ideas. At first we build onto them but eventually the idea morphs into a new, better idea. That's what happened to the pointless monster grind when quests came on scene, and I hope that old idea never sees the light of day again. In certain XIV players wanna continue to live in the dark age then fuck 'em. I don't want them screwing up my future game for their dumbass nostalgic reasons.

Could not agree more. I have played a lot of games where then developers cave to the vocal minority. I really hope Yoshi-P sticks to his guns

[kisada]

looks like i really missed the bus on what yoshi said about open world grinding. can anyone elaborate?

[Waraji]

can anyone elaborate?

No Open World Grinding. Any questions?

Spoiler: show

Open world grinding is shit mechanic developed in old generation MMO's (ex. Everquest, which XI was based off of, a lot of people forget to mention this essential fact when comparing XI to most MMO's of that time). It was appropriate for its time, but in todays MMO market it is bad for business to force your subscriber to do so as a form of Progression. It's boring, mindless, and not needed. Dynamic content with silly rewards While vertically progressing your character, is far more rewarding (in a false sense, because the rewards are essentially shit 5 levels up) than mindless grinding without.

[miokomioko]

The only problem with the complete lack of open-world grinding at the moment is that there needs to be something you can consistently do to solo somewhat decent exp when you're all out of leves, all out of quests, waiting on FATEs to pop up, hit a cockblock in your Hunting Log, and don't have the attention-commitment to participate in an instance for an hour. I've already experienced this and my only answer so far has been to just switch classes and work on something else.

[Takiwaki]

The only problem with the complete lack of open-world grinding at the moment is that there needs to be something you can consistently do to solo somewhat decent exp when you're all out of leves, all out of quests, waiting on FATEs to pop up, hit a cockblock in your Hunting Log, and don't have the attention-commitment to participate in an instance for an hour. I've already experienced this and my only answer so far has been to just switch classes and work on something else.

Well like you quoted on the last page its not something that should happen and only happening cus of content not being in beta, but I do believe that there will always be something to do, and not run out. If for the sole purpose of xp we find ourselves running out of things to do then that's a really shit design.

[Raldo]

I've already experienced this and my only answer so far has been to just switch classes and work on something else.

Frustrating as it may be, I'm pretty sure this is their intent.

[kisada]

any direct quotes i can reference to?

[Takiwaki]

Frustrating as it may be, I'm pretty sure this is their intent.

I am pretty sure its not lol, If by design they are making quest style leveling, then there should be enough of it in different forms to get you to max level. Not reach a roadblock forcing you to switch jobs =/.

Originally Posted by Y P
Quests from the main scenario will be available, but because these require travel to other nations at level 15, they will be limited. Sidequests are designed to accompany the main scenario, so it may be a bit of a pain to level up after that point.

[Grey Jorildyn]

The only problem with the complete lack of open-world grinding at the moment is that there needs to be something you can consistently do to solo somewhat decent exp when you're all out of leves, all out of quests, waiting on FATEs to pop up, hit a cockblock in your Hunting Log, and don't have the attention-commitment to participate in an instance for an hour. I've already experienced this and my only answer so far has been to just switch classes and work on something else.

Aion added soloable dungeon later in the game's life for partly this reason. I think it was tailored to your class? I also seem to recall it gave some gear, decent exp, and was part of some daily/weekly? Someone else would have to clarify these points.

The point is that open world grinding isn't the only solution to solo boredom. Killing mobs alone isn't meaningful unless you're farming. Doing something with extra rewards can be (if you want those rewards). The hunting log is a great start and there are ideas like that which can be implemented. Dare I say daily quests or hunts ala FFXII are fair ideas.

[Oreth]

Wasnt it mentioned that we would or supposed to get EXP reward for unlocking areas of the map for exploration? Was that scrapped or just not currently implemented in the Beta?

[Takiwaki]

Wasnt it mentioned that we would or supposed to get EXP reward for unlocking areas of the map for exploration? Was that scrapped or just not currently implemented in the Beta?

http://www.boiledbeans.net/wp-conten...c2b9e7925b.jpg

[Waraji]

I am pretty sure its not lol, If by design they are making quest style leveling, then there should be enough of it in different forms to get you to max level. Not reach a roadblock forcing you to switch jobs =/.

Yoshi was reffering specifically to the Alpha/Beta test in that last quote, where a substantial amount of the content is still being left out.

As for actual leveling, you have a substantial amount of content to keep you busy leveling if you don't like grinding dungeons. Remember, at launch, you essentially have 3 different level 15 dungeons to cycle through, and at 25, so on and so forth. Couple that with eventual addition of even more dungeons, disregard FATE, Hamlet, Leves, Questing, Behest(New Name). One run through each of those dungeons will bump you up enough to go do something else to hold you off till your next dungeon tier.

Edit* I fkin love the hunting log. From both a completionist viewpoint and leveling viewpoint. I hope they do have a XII style bestiary to add even more flavor to hunting and exploring. In game bestiary was a big thing missing in XI and 1.0 to be honest, given how iconic it is in the modern FF franchise.

[Takiwaki]

Yoshi was reffering specifically to the Alpha/Beta test in that last quote, where a substantial amount of the content is still being left out.

As for actual leveling, you have a substantial amount of content to keep you busy leveling if you don't like grinding dungeons. Remember, at launch, you essentially have 3 different level 15 dungeons to cycle through, and at 25, so on and so forth. Couple that with eventual addition of even more dungeons, disregard FATE, Hamlet, Leves, Questing, Behest(New Name). One run through each of those dungeons will bump you up enough to go do something else to hold you off till your next dungeon tier.

Edit* I fkin love the hunting log. From both a completionist viewpoint and leveling viewpoint. I hope they do have a XII style bestiary to add even more flavor to hunting and exploring. In game bestiary was a big thing missing in XI and 1.0 to be honest, given how iconic it is in the modern FF franchise.

You know you are saying the exact same thing I was right? lol. you notice my post was a response and I know that quote was for alpha/beta lol, thats why I used it to make the point, cmon its just a couple posts up...

[Tidane]

I won't quote any specific posts, but the feeling I get is that the fear is that there will be nothing to do. For some people, the ability (which inevitably turns into need) to grind is a solution to the problem. For others, the grind itself is part of the problem.

The question I have (and dare I say, everyone sane has) is what can the developers implement that is repetitively fun? In all the MMOs I've played, the developers idea of endgame is "grind this so you can grind that, and hope it takes long enough for us to implement our next grind". Their idea of midgame is grind this until you can grind those other things.

This thought isn't restricted to MMO developers, of course. Multiplayer (and some single player) games have often given up implementing fun and replacing it with mindless grinding. Prestige 60 three times for an achievement! The grind is less noticable to many in these games because the grinding is more involved. You're just pressing mouse one over and over, but there's an actual chance of failure (being beaten by the other players).

When it comes to an MMO, however, the grind is completely obvious. Since you're competing against a computer that is balanced towards the lowest common denominator, any competent group of people is going to have minimal issues mindlessly clearing the content. Getting the gear isn't about having any "skill", but grinding an easy instance until everyone in your group is geared (which was luck based in XI, but token based in other games). Once you're done, you grind the next one. After you finish the last one, you're done until they add slightly better gear to grind for (XI) or a level cap increase (most games).

What's a developer to do? If they add content without better rewards, people will deem it a waste of time. If people only do it once, you've "wasted" development money. If you try to make it challenging, the majority of your players will complain about it being to hard or, since this is an MMO, you're limited to how hard it can be and end up with luck based trials.

What's the solution, then? PvP is an obvious one, as it allows more organic challenges. A person is less predictable than a computer, which makes it less repetitive (and actually introduces the potential for skill based failure and not luck).

Not everyone likes PvP, though, so you end up with people that are still complaining. I'm sure a lot of people cry for the good old days of grinding. The problem is it isn't the grinding they remember, but what the players were doing during the grinding. I think this is really the key detail the gets overlooked. When people are grinding, it isn't the grind they enjoy, but the interaction during the grind.

I know that, for me, this requires voice chat (wow, how'd this post get here). Typing is alright, if I'm standing around doing nothing, but when I start doing instances, I can't continue typing while being effective. I think this is one area where Yoshida is dropping the ball. If I'm playing with friends, we can all get on voice, but with the type of game XIV is turning out, doing anything with pickups is going to be a pain.

[Waraji]

just a couple posts up...

should have put a ---- after first sentence, rest wasn't direct at you sorry.

[arus2001]

Aion added soloable dungeon later in the game's life for partly this reason. I think it was tailored to your class? I also seem to recall it gave some gear, decent exp, and was part of some daily/weekly? Someone else would have to clarify these points.

Only one I'd personally experienced was the level 50 dungeon. Basically, I didn't see it being based on your class so much as getting some buff items and meeting an NPC early on that could tank or do other roles shittily. And either the gear wasn't very impressive or too rare to even be a factor in progression. There were some quests and dailies associated, the best being a stigma slot, but that's about all I recall.

The point is that open world grinding isn't the only solution to solo boredom. Killing mobs alone isn't meaningful unless you're farming. Doing something with extra rewards can be (if you want those rewards). The hunting log is a great start and there are ideas like that which can be implemented. Dare I say daily quests or hunts ala FFXII are fair ideas.

And I agree that just indiscriminately killing won't added up to much. I kind of like the thought that XII ran with on some of their hunts. Like chaining X mobs would make an NM appear (likely claimed to you in this case) and it can then be tied to a quest or guaranteed reward upon defeat. Some of these could be soloable. Some might require a trio or so. And come endgame, conditions could even be set up to give larger guilds/linkshells something to focus on occasionally not unlike a Hakutaku run in XI or something. Just hopefully a more enjoyable fight without the pop restriction cockblocks multiple groups could run into. Fundamentally, you could probably call this all user controlled FATEs. I know Rift has certain "conditions" that spawn their various zone events, but Trion was never forthcoming on what those were, which also means some events just never seem to happen (like 2 in Moonshade Highlands I'm missing achievements on ;_; ).

Anyway, my only "sure thing" with XIV right now is it'll probably tell its stories better than most other MMOs out right now. It's funny how cut-scenes (even if just an NPC bobbing and gobbing their mouth) or just not doing giant text window dumps is a more engaging step in that process. Jobs offer lore potential alone, which I think XI kind of dropped the ball on. Like why Reinemard or whoever pissed off the church and wound up in a box in GC. They could continue the AF trend with good job-specific loot, or at the very least, vanity items. Maybe even new abilities. Though that just invites whining from the crowd who'd want to bitch about having to do quest chains (or build some equivalent of fame) just to get to the good stuff.

[Hyan]

Can SE not make it a crime to unsub until the next patch arrives? I mean, if there is enough meaningful content to justify 10 bucks then that should keep the game afloat.

Hard part, I guess, is to make the player care about coming back for the next patch. Some "to be continued..." style storylines with cool cutscenes, casual progressive instances with a bit of grind required...

I see most people never come back to the MMO once the content is exhausted. Why not work on giving them an incentive each time a patch rolls around?

[Takiwaki]

should have put a ---- after first sentence, rest wasn't direct at you sorry.

lol np, I misunderstood.

As for the the entire running out of stuff to do, there will always be a need for some "grind", but it doesn't have to be xp parties. There are many repeatable content that will fill that space. The point is that people are using the term grind very loosely nowadays, when its usually meant for mundane repeatable boring tasks and not something that is repeatably fun or challenging.

As far as the typing thing, again the game is faster paced and I guess people are worried about not being able to communicate lol, well thats what the entire 2.5 seconds of the GCD is for! I know that will up my APM..jk