Comments from the Devs

[Kami]

One can have bitterness and aggressiveness also toward something we loved. Playing FFXI was basically angry sex, we all know this

Ahah, at times maybe yeah

[xopher]

Leveling up is not content. Grinding is an action.

Running the same dungeons repeatedly is no different.

In FFXI I enjoyed grinding mobs for exp far more than doing dynamis for drops. Same with FFXIV. Enjoyed leveling my character more than running AV/CC/etc over and over and over.

[Grey Jorildyn]

The results may seem similar but the rewards and challenges are more worthwhile, generally speaking. Dungeons are content. They have mini-quests, bosses, varying difficulties, gear rewards, story/lore attached to them... Somehow I don't think that is the same...

XI screwed players on parallel progression in instances by denying them exp during most content. Just think how much less grinding you would have had to do if those XI dungeons had provided exp.

[Takiwaki]

Running the same dungeons repeatedly is no different.

In FFXI I enjoyed grinding mobs for exp far more than doing dynamis for drops. Same with FFXIV. Enjoyed leveling my character more than running AV/CC/etc over and over and over.

But dynamis never gave xp...you are kinda comparing 2 things that are missing the main important ingredient that is supposed to be common to both. XP

Of course we all enjoyed xp in XI more than other content it was the only thing that didnt screw us over with RNG, lol

Also I do agree xping isnt content .. I still believe that nowadays xp should be a byproduct of doing content not the other way around. running dungeons is very different than grinding for xp as it is designed content that rewards gear,xp and progression in said content, which grinding for xp is not.

I mean I get it, before we used to level up in order to experience content that was level locked. Now developers are just trying to facilitate leveling into the content instead of having it separate.

No one that played FFXI ever thought it silly that after defeating some of the hardest content in the game and beating the hardest bosses that not one ounce of experience was gained? but instead we had to go back and grind easy mobs to regain experience? I mean that kinda defeats the entire meaning of experience lol

[Mina]

I'd like to introduce you to the Etrian Odyssey games.

Why? Because you think I wouldn't like it? I buy all of ATLUS's games and I'm an avid fan of EO. I just haven't played IV yet because I've been spending so much time with FE:A.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I wondered for years why we didn't get exp for doing dynamis. People would just tell me "it's not supposed to be an xp party." I would ask "Why?" and the only answer I ever got was along the lines of "just because" lol

[Izzy]

I wondered for years why we didn't get exp for doing dynamis. People would just tell me "it's not supposed to be an xp party." I would ask "Why?" and the only answer I ever got was along the lines of "just because" lol

^ This, and Dynamis SHOULD HAVE given EXP. We didn't realize it too much then, but in every MMO nowadays, you get EXP for running an instance.

The overall problem with the last few pages of discussion is that we've all had some sort of influence by FFXI. If we all never played XI to have that "nostalgic grinding" experience, would anyone really accept that form of leveling in any game nowadays?

*spoilers* the answer is no

[Enygma55]

One point really hit it, people grind to gain levels to reach the next lv of content to do. Current design integrates this and grants levels as you consume content so you dont have to grind.

Open world grinding as it is now functions perfectly normal. Everyone is free to form 8 man parties and kill stuff in the current version. The only complaint is the xp reward is no where near as good as doing quests/leves/dungeons.

If they were to up the xp reward to even be half as effecient as those content, people would spend the first few weeks of their playtime in a party and grind to lv 50, bypassing every content the game has to offer. From a business standpoint, thats bad. So much time is spent making lv 15/25/35/45 dungeons when people would just grind to 50 and do endgame content is a waste of development time.

Yoshi-P is trying to make people enjoy the journey. If people grind to 50 while hitting every single dungeon along the way, mission success.

[Takiwaki]

Open world grinding as it is now functions perfectly normal. Everyone is free to form 8 man parties and kill stuff in the current version. The only complaint is the xp reward is no where near as good as doing quests/leves/dungeons.
.

This is not correct, the mobs in the open world at the moment are there to support content, be it quests, hunting logs etc. The system is balanced towards that, issues will now arise where people are killing mobs that people want to xp on or vice versa, and again there is the issue with the claiming system if people want to grind or claim mobs, it will not work, we have to look at the entire picture in order to really make decisions based on a game system such as this. Like I posted its not that cut and dry. So they up the xp and people start to camp and kill stuff, whats gonna happen when people come around doing thier leves or that huge FATE event kicks off? Are we going to complain more to SE to change that to fit our xp area?

But I do 100% agree with everything else you said in your post lol, which I did also say previously

[Deelo]

One point really hit it, people grind to gain levels to reach the next lv of content to do. Current design integrates this and grants levels as you consume content so you dont have to grind.

Open world grinding as it is now functions perfectly normal. Everyone is free to form 8 man parties and kill stuff in the current version. The only complaint is the xp reward is no where near as good as doing quests/leves/dungeons.

If they were to up the xp reward to even be half as effecient as those content, people would spend the first few weeks of their playtime in a party and grind to lv 50, bypassing every content the game has to offer. From a business standpoint, thats bad. So much time is spent making lv 15/25/35/45 dungeons when people would just grind to 50 and do endgame content is a waste of development time.

Yoshi-P is trying to make people enjoy the journey. If people grind to 50 while hitting every single dungeon along the way, mission success.

What a great, constructive post. Thank you for this. That makes more sense than "OMG GO BACK TO FFXI LOL" or "GRINDING IS AWFUL NOOB OGM LOL".

[arus2001]

I'm more inclined to call FATEs superior to dungeon running by virtue of variety, while most dungeons are virtually the same each time you enter. One time you can have a fight where you're totally undermanned for the boss. The next it could get steamrolled by an army of players. Now, I know the usual retort here would be that the latter is no fun, as dungeons maintain challenge with their party restrictions and instance element. I'm more inclined to say bosses need to better scale to account for people involved. In Rift, most of the time that just means more HP. Snore. Ideally, the more people that wind up on a mob's enmity list, the more abilities it should gain access to counter the excess of damage, healing, and attack variety. If powerful adds are suddenly involved, you're going to need more than one or two tanks to keep the boss busy and protect the support from getting mauled. You'll also need some degree of on the fly coordination to keep such things under control while making sure the boss doesn't heal up or whatever.

This isn't to say every FATE should be some omgeatyourface mob battle, but there's just more room for flexibility of objectives depending on how much of the open world you want to include within the event itself. Adding new FATEs is also more than likely easier, with dungeon content obviously needing the new/additional geometry and associated testing. But yes, I'm more "for" open-world grinding viability only in the pick-up-and-play sense. Not so much XI's "you gotta be a party of X type" just to work on an area. XI also hurt the solo grinding aspect with EXP being more about fixed relations to the mob than mob EXP being based on mob/level with our TNLs being respectively higher. Or more like older games where Imps outside of town gave 1-3 EXP while mobs in the last area could give 10k+. That kinda thing.

[Shimbo]

This is not correct, the mobs in the open world at the moment are there to support content, be it quests, hunting logs etc. The system is balanced towards that, issues will now arise where people are killing mobs that people want to xp on or vice versa, and again there is the issue with the claiming system if people want to grind or claim mobs, it will not work, we have to look at the entire picture in order to really make decisions based on a game system such as this.

Oh man.. What kind of dick would go out of his way to go by a exp party and start killing their mobs.
"Sorry just doing hunting log"

Not me.

[Takiwaki]

Oh man.. What kind of dick would go out of his way to go by a exp party and start killing their mobs.
"Sorry just doing hunting log"

Not me.

You missed the point lol, so what you are saying is that I must wait for someones xp party to finish in order to kill mobs I need to progress? Its not about what people will do but how the game is designed ..No one is going out of their way to kill anyones mobs as there is no such thing with the way the game is designed, especially when the mobs in question were designed as part of the hunting log. you see what I mean? Its about requesting an entire system change.

I mean I can say the same thing, most mobs in the game (open world mobs) atm are part of the hunting log, by design why should an xp party be killing them when I need it to progress and level, are they all being dicks? lol

[xopher]

Why? Because you think I wouldn't like it? I buy all of ATLUS's games and I'm an avid fan of EO. I just haven't played IV yet because I've been spending so much time with FE:A.

Because the only content in Etrian Odyssey is grinding, and it's a fantastic game series.

^ This, and Dynamis SHOULD HAVE given EXP. We didn't realize it too much then, but in every MMO nowadays, you get EXP for running an instance.

The overall problem with the last few pages of discussion is that we've all had some sort of influence by FFXI. If we all never played XI to have that "nostalgic grinding" experience, would anyone really accept that form of leveling in any game nowadays?

*spoilers* the answer is no

Actually I enjoy grinding in lots of games, before and after I've played FFXI. Also, Dynamis does give XP now.

But dynamis never gave xp...you are kinda comparing 2 things that are missing the main important ingredient that is supposed to be common to both. XP

To me it seems that grinding with a set goal of so many XP to level up doesn't seem that different from grinding on mobs until a random time in which an item drops, which is essentially leveling you up in a different way.

[arus2001]

You missed the point lol, so what you are saying is that I must wait for someones xp party to finish in order to kill mobs I need to progress? Its not about what people will do but how the game is designed ..No one is going out of their way to kill anyones mobs as there is no such thing with the way the game is designed, especially when the mobs in question were designed as part of the hunting log. you see what I mean? Its about requesting an entire system change.

I mean I can say the same thing, most mobs in the game (open world mobs) atm are part of the hunting log, by design why should an xp party be killing them when I need it to progress and level, are they all being dicks? lol

I want to say the answer here is smarter repop systems. Instead of a flat 5m timer, for example, if a given population is being cleared out, respawn more quickly. That way stragglers aren't randomly roaming in and ruining things for the party or being cockblocked by the party. From there, don't confine fodder mobs to a single small area only. And if, for whatever reason, a specific mob MUST be niche, don't make some kind of log requirement take 5+ kills.

[miokomioko]

Oh man.. What kind of dick would go out of his way to go by a exp party and start killing their mobs.
"Sorry just doing hunting log"

Not me.

I don't think this NDA-breaking, but anyone can attack any mob (claimed or not) and as long as you have some hate on it, you'll receive EXP when it dies.

Come to think of it, open world mobs giving shit exp is also an anti-powerleveling mechanic considering how easy it would be to leech exp off of other people's kills with this claim system.

[Achitophel]

I don't get the dramatic outcries from it on both sides of the spectrum. What if it didn't affect your gameplay at all (if your against it), then why would you even care?

The billion dollar question that can't be honestly answered without admitting some self-righteousness.

And I don't want to grind, but there it is.

[Takiwaki]

In an enclosed system such as this, everything is connected and it will affect everyone's gameplay, It is really not hard to see that. People will always care because they are passionate about the game, its only human to do so. I understand, what if it didn't, but its a fact that it does, as it will affect core systems already in place in the game. So I guess that is why the debate is so important to some.

[Lucavi]

I thought that about FATEs too, then I levelled up past 20. Can't say much more due to the NDA.

But I suppose Lucavi is right, the people who want proper open world grinding want it for the restrictions it places on it such as perfect party setups. The strange part is I don't remember any of that in V1. It was either unorganised AoE spam at high levels or an LS member power leveling you at lower levels. Leves didn't even need a tank, it was a case of kill it before it does any damage. Or looking further back it was 15 man parties whacking stuff for random EXP and even trying to keep the mob alive for more of it.

I feel ya, and I'd like to comment about my own experiences in Alpha in a few "open grinding" parties I had, but I cannot due to the NDA. All I can say is that they were fun, based on what content we were provided. I see no reason why those cannot happen in either a fun dungeon (Rift had so many good ones that I loved gear/leveling/loot-grinding through voice-acted dungeons with different class-setups), through FATE-running (you can basically do this in GW2, and some guilds do just that - warping between zones, fighting all the big-boss public quests and raking in the loot drops) and, if you still want to, yet accept the penalties to it, open world grinding.

You can still grind. You just won't gain massive levels from it. People crying need to make a decision and be honest with themselves: do they want open-world grinding because it delivers that classic "final fantasy feeling" to which I cannot refute, or do they want open-world grinding because its a mindless and easy way to quickly hit cap and do whatever it is they want to do up there. I feel like its a mixture, but far more of the latter, considering how often open-world grinding to cap was prolific in 1.0. I didn't even play that high (was too busy crafting), but everyone I knew constantly spoke of how the best way to level to 50 was to just open-world camp for a few hours and do nothing else.

SE doesn't want that this time around. Yoshi wants people moving and shaking, not sitting in one camp for 5 hours as a group, no matter how much nostalgic fun it may be.

Nostalgia is for the classics. If you want that feeling, PLAY THE CLASSICS. When I want that Final Fantasy Tactics feeling, I fucking play Final Fantasy Tactics.

I love every minute of it, too.

[Achitophel]

I really doubt there's an effect that you could claim it would have that couldn't be addressed. Just as people on the OF have very strong emotions about irrational things, so do other people. Just because you (the general you) post on BG doesn't mean you're exempt from that.