Comments from the Devs

[Lucavi]

I admit it; sometimes I still double tap in one direction, trying to dodge roll.

[Achitophel]

I think most people that compare BG to the OF are doing so because as much as the OF is defined by OMG MAKE IT LIKE FFXI, this place is defined as OMG DON'T MAKE IT LIKE FFXI. The feeling of the community is more or less the same, just two sides of the same lame coin. Like MSNBC and Fox: it only feels different to people that like one or the other.

Anyway, the game is enjoyable. They're having some infrastructural issues and that's fine/expected, but I see a lot of potential both in the execution of the game and in the context: they've invested a lot in this game already, so there's the promise of a lot more to come.

[Agito]

Every beginner in FFXI knew that if you ran circles around the mobs then they are less likely to hit you.

[Elcura]

Considering no FF game has really been like the last (and the further you go the more apparent this becomes), I don't see why FFXIV needs to be like XI just from a general standpoint. It's just not what SE does. SE are just as likely to take things from FFXI as they are from VI or IX, which is to say silly cosmetic things and references. It's stupid to believe they'll actually copy a battle system from an older FF game without trying something different.

[Lucavi]

Especially when Yoshi has continuously said that he's looking to modern MMOs for inspiration, not old ones. Seems people who have an issue with BG being anti-XI (which isn't the case in every circumstance) also has an issue with BG being pro-Yoshi's ideals, since he's on the same page as the sweeping majority of us in terms of content and design direction.

That's the part that makes it seem so silly, to me. The OF couldn't be farther away from Yoshi, yet BG is on the same page, and you're still like "omg sure is OF up in here!". I don't know how many times Yoshi has to say it, or we have to cite him saying it; he's looking outside of the realm of FFXI and EQ when it comes to designing this game. You can accuse whoever you want of being "anti-XI", but you have to accuse Yoshi of exactly the same thing, and both claims are foolish. Looking away from something for inspiration and ideals =/= being anti.

[Achitophel]

Either way, such strong opinions are very silly. And these silly strong opinions about a FF-online game remind people of the OF. Hence...

[Elcura]

Oh I see, we should be more apathetic. Got'cha.

[Achitophel]

Or more measured? Less zealous about how OMG MY PERSONAL OPINION IS SO RIGHT?

[Elcura]

OMG MY PERSONAL OPINION IS SO RIGHT?

I see someone new to the internet. Or at the very least, BG. Shit's standard.

[Achitophel]

lol

[Egon]

Every beginner in FFXI knew that if you ran circles around the mobs then they are less likely to hit you.

THIS

[Kami]

Especially when Yoshi has continuously said that he's looking to modern MMOs for inspiration, not old ones. (...)

Except that WoW, just like XI isn't a modern MMO. XIV 2.0 is going to be far from the deep concept changes the MMO market needs. I remember Yoshi saying somewhere (months ago) that XIV 2.0 would be to WoW what FFXI was to EQ. Therefore it's pretty amusing to read people claiming that FFXI fans are living in the past while they're actually praising the WoW system.

Talking to a NPC to receive a quest you won't read anyway, go kill 10 mobs and go to previous/next NPC to receive your XP bonus is just as boring and déjà vu as grinding the same spot for hours.

Not saying XIV 2.0 is gonna be bad, I think it could be decent/good although i'm not completly sold yet, but please no "modern" talk here, that's just dumb.

[Takiwaki]

Does a modern MMO in today's market need an action based combat system in order to be even considered? Or is there still room for slower paced tactical style systems?

[Churchill]

you just said modern and action based and slow in the same description.

the answer would be no.

I think there's a middle ground between GW2's no real tank or hate mechanics dodge roll to save yourself and having a trinity with action based mechanics that punish the slow, dimwitted, and XI's.

[Takiwaki]

you just said modern and action based and slow in the same description.

the answer would be no.

I think there's a middle ground between GW2's no real tank or hate mechanics dodge roll to save yourself and having a trinity with action based mechanics that punish the slow, dimwitted, and XI's.

My issue is why does a modern mmorpg have to have action based combat to make it a modern mmo.. Is there a way to have a slower tactical combat system and yet have it be modern, something we just have not seen yet?

Modern RPGs still have turn based systems also, no one is complaining, or are they? lol

Also what you described is being done in neverwinter, and pretty well done imo, if not for the shitty ftp character designs.

[Churchill]

neverwinter is pretty slow lol

and yes, to have a modern mmo you have to make things challenging. sitting in one spot behind some form of protection as a healer or dps is not challenging. fighting one boss who does big attacks you heal through is not challenging.

If we take 1.0:
Ifrit X - Sustain damage, hate resets, horn mechanics, dodging ground based attacks, DPS checks. The only part that was sort of lame was the guaranteed 22-24s timer on attacks but given the lag I'll accept it for 1.0

Garuda - Predictable mechanics based on HP/Time/adds dying. Damage management, hate management, DPS checks, CC checks, paying the fuck attention checks. The only thing i really didn't like about Garuda was the lag.

If those fights had less standing around they'd have been better. Ifrit X would have been great sans lag and more unpredictability. Once you get on the same page and understand your lag limitations, the fight is pretty easy to one shot every time. Same with Garuda. The only times I've ever died after getting it down were swapping tanks or healers (pretty much goes for anything I suppose). To beat them you had to play smart more than anything as neither was particularly difficult otherwise.

[Takiwaki]

What does slow have to do with being challenging?

Do not get me wrong I agree with you, but Slow and challenging are not synonymous. What you just described as being challenging if changed, has nothing to do with action based combat either.

For example, someone does not like RTS games which is considered challenging by many, but likes Tactics type games like fire emblem which are slow in comparison, are those games not considered challenging?

[Churchill]

Right, they are antonyms.

[Lucavi]

Except that WoW, just like XI isn't a modern MMO. XIV 2.0 is going to be far from the deep concept changes the MMO market needs. I remember Yoshi saying somewhere (months ago) that XIV 2.0 would be to WoW what FFXI was to EQ. Therefore it's pretty amusing to read people claiming that FFXI fans are living in the past while they're actually praising the WoW system.

Talking to a NPC to receive a quest you won't read anyway, go kill 10 mobs and go to previous/next NPC to receive your XP bonus is just as boring and déjà vu as grinding the same spot for hours.

Not saying XIV 2.0 is gonna be bad, I think it could be decent/good although i'm not completly sold yet, but please no "modern" talk here, that's just dumb.

You think I was just talking about WoW? Modern, in the terms of Square Enix (which is what we're discussing), means any MMO that came out post XI. You can throw AoC, Warhammer, Rift, TERA, GW2, Star Wars or any of the others in the mix, and yes, that includes WoW. I'm sorry if that startling realization offends your sensibilities.

I'm also sorry that yes, NPC quest >> Kill 10 bunnies >> return for reward is more modern than Start game >> grind >> eventually hit end-game. No one is arguing the semantics of what's better; we're establishing fact, and the fact is that Yoshi is taking what works from games post-XI into 2.0., since obviously taking most everything from XI and throwing a coat of paint on it for 1.0. didn't work. Its like speaking to a child, sometimes.

You can be on the fence, Kami, but tell me; were you excited for 1.0.? Were you really hyped for the game after getting your hands on it? Did you play in the alpha? The beta?

@Churchhill: You're right, of course. A combination of "block, dodge or get fucked" mechanics and "classic" positioning mechanics would work best, given SE's wonky movement engine they have in place. There's still room to incorporate movement into evasion, but I doubt we'll see it since SE seems committed to the "when you fire your weapon, it auto-tracks without so much as a projectile". Its still strange in 2013 to see an archer fire an arrow, and the hit effect just magically pops up on the mob, but hey, its still classic SE, I suppose.

[Takiwaki]

Right, they are antonyms.

lol no they are not either, cmon now that's silly, because you can have fast paced combat that's spammy shit with no challenge also....

I did mean game speed, not slow, my apologies. Meaning that challenging and game speed really, can be related but is not necessarily so.

I do wish for a more control and action based system to one day be added to an FF mmo. I do think its silly they did not even attempt to add a dodge type mechanic into the game at all