Comments from the Devs

[Mina]

Lucavi brought up something about hate in XI two(edit: three) pages ago and it's a lot more interesting than talking about a girl on the internet.

I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion. Only really put a lot of effort in THF and SMN. So most of my tanking knowledge comes from what I hear or read. Or my experience in stapling hate onto the tank.

[Lucavi]

When did I walk into the XI section. I was thinking you guys were talking about XIV at first when I saw this page, but nothing made sense D:

Well there's not much else that can be discussed about it, honestly. Consensus is that flash should be removed from the GCD so you aren't standing around like a defenseless idiot after casting it for 2 seconds. No tank should ever feel helpless unless they've blown all of their resources, be it TP, MP, or abilities, but its impossible to "blow" through all of your resources currently in 2.0 when one of the biggest is locked down on the same GCD that just about everything else shares.

I don't remember anyone here saying that they enjoyed the current state of Flash, so that's that, I suppose.

[Gokulo]

Not really complaining about the discussion, was just confused when I first started reading last page

And yeah, the first thing that I said after trying Gladiator was that utility skills like Flash should not be on GCD.

[Cutriss]

But yeah, the only reason monk wasn't actually used more as a tank is because we didn't understand how enmity actually worked.

That and the fact that they spend most of their time Boosting outside PT so that you can invite them to Chi Blast.

[Fievel]

That and the fact that they spend most of their time Boosting outside PT so that you can invite them to Chi Blast.

Please don't remind me of such things.

[Waraji]

I don't know, after a couple of runs, you kind of get into a certain flash/sav.blade rotation that pretty decently keeps hate, and keeps your MP high. It was a pain before I figured it out, then it was just shits and giggles.

[Spider-Dan]

Where is the NDA police? The discussion needs to be kept on things that matter.

Like XI:

Monk could actually tank the entire game from the day the game launched in NA.

I would love to see you explain how RoZ/CoP MNK was an "effective" tank but any other job was not. You expect MNK/NIN to tank for a party of RoZ RNGs? Do tell.

[Fievel]

Did you even read his post? Or just decide to come in and vomit your usual bullshit in the form of a reply?

[Spider-Dan]

Yes, I read the rest of his post where he said that MNK could tank better than PLD. Which definitely wasn't true during RoZ, since PLD could at least Cover RNGs.

It takes some powerful hindsight revisionism to claim that MNK was a better tank than PLD during RoZ; specifically in that you have to presume that all of the 2006-era damage mechanics are understood, but none of the 2007-era enmity mechanics are. Because if you understand both of those things, MNK is not a good choice to cite as a tank in early game XI.

P.S. "monk could tank all of XI from NA release" is not a statement that requires intensive study to debunk.

[Mina]

Where is the NDA police?

No one cares on the internet. With how many [insert whatever word you want here] are in the beta there have been plenty of loose lips. I'm more shy to say anything since my character is being held hostage. I shouldn't be so scared since I've seen so many twitch streamers showing off the beta but I can't help that I'm paranoid.

Edit: And most of us have been intelligent enough to be vague, dance around the issue, and not post pictures or something stupid.

[Waraji]

It takes some powerful hindsight revisionism to claim that MNK was a better tank than PLD during RoZ; specifically in that you have to presume that all of the 2006-era damage mechanics are understood, but none of the 2007-era enmity mechanics are. Because if you understand both of those things, MNK is not a good choice to cite as a tank in early game XI.

P.S. "monk could tank all of XI from NA release" is not a statement that requires intensive study to debunk.

What requires intensive study is your ability to read a quote you yourself even quoted in your own post. How fucking dumb is That? No one here said anything about Monk tanking Better than Paladin, just that they could. Just like Warrior could easily tank Khimaira, but no one ever did.

Seriously, I mean, you're not even trying anymore to come up with even ass backwards arguments.

[Spider-Dan]

What requires intensive study is your ability to read a quote you yourself even quoted in your own post. How fucking dumb is That? No one here said anything about Monk tanking Better than Paladin, just that they could.

You know the cool thing about the quoting feature in this forum? Even if you aren't reading the thread (which you clearly aren't), there are these little arrows next to the name of the original poster that you can click on to take you to their post.

When you do that, you see things like this (from the same post that I cited):

But yeah, Monk could tank from the time the game launched in NA and it could do it better than Paladin.

Then you can avoid completely embarrassing posts like the one you just made.

[Nullibicity]

But yeah, Monk could tank from the time the game launched in NA and it could do it better than Paladin.

???

[Waraji]

http://static.diary.ru/userdir/2/5/1...0/75540436.png

[Churchill]

Actually, I said better.

Let's just assume a badass rotation for your Paladin, which would be unlikely due to the fact that this rotation is based on knowledge of testing that occurred later in the game. There is also no cure cheating yet and most Paladins had to save MP for Flash and sparingly cure.

Boom! I just found a badass <t>!

Sentinel! 1800VE
Flash! 1280VE (x2)
Provoke! 1800VE (x2)
Shield Bash! 900VE (x2)

9760VE/180CE

Monk does 60-100 damage/fist at this time and smart people were doing double march/haste because oh cool look how fast he attacks and oh shit utsu timers. This only gets better when you add in some of the staples of Monk'dom and they are all available in 2004/2005. Black belt, Byakkos, Shura Togi, Panther Mask +1(fuck yea!).

There is a reason Monk was the first job able to burn party and it wasn't simply relic h2h giving them unlimited TP or bones in KRT. They quite literally were the best DPS under full haste buffs and could match any other job in Moon or Sky too. Given that they attack so quickly, they are able to hold hate (at capped values) better than most classes because their VE is refreshed as soon as it decays/their CE is refreshed quickly after they take damage.

[Spider-Dan]

Hey, remember that part where I said 2006-damage-mechanics in 2004? Seems relevant now.

If people were really running double March in 2004, RNG would have never been nerfed because there would have been no need, as hasted-out DW parties would have been rampaging through sky for years. Unfortunately, if you were actually playing the game in 2004 (instead of just reading this thread 9 years later), you would be well aware that RNG was dominating the game with double Minuet parties and stacked RACC.

Which tidily brings me to my next point: good sir, please do explain which HNMs MNK would have been "damage tanking" in the pre-sushi, pre-merit era? Because I can't think of any HNM (was there any piercing-penalty, blunt-bonus HNM in 2004?) against which MNK would have been able to stand in the same DPS league as RNG.

And finally: if we are going to play 2004 XI with 2009 knowledge, NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN are the only tanks in the game, full stop. If you're going to rewrite history, do so with gusto.

[Fievel]

Are you saying monk burns didn't happen pre 2006....? Or deco weapon burns with war or drk dual wielding with march? Because if so holy shit lol

[Churchill]

I guess a friend and I never tanked the 2004 HNMs (Roc, Simurgh, Serket, Guivre, Bune, etc) on Monk. Sky gods/pops, World Spawn NQs to follow. Anything that wasn't a turtle and didn't fly after that.

I can't think of any time I've used sushi on Monk - pizza yeah, sushi never. We would run 2 BRDs in those days and sing Minuets or Madrigals - just like everybody used to do lol.

I'm sorry you're a bad dan, for being such a pve carebear you'd think you'd be a little better at it.

[Spider-Dan]

Find me a single post from any forum prior to July 19, 2005 from someone (preferably you) claiming that RNGs are overrated and melees with March are the way to go.

Otherwise, hindsight champion. Speaking of which:

I guess a friend and I never tanked the 2004 HNMs (Roc, Simurgh, Serket, Guivre, Bune, etc) on Monk.

1) I notice that this doesn't actually say that you tanked them in 2004. Of course, that is what you are saying, right? Because if you are saying that you didn't personally tank them until, say, after TAU release, that's kind of totally meaningless.
2) I am very interested in hearing how your 2004 MNK was able to tank a greater bird (2/5ths of your cited examples) and hold it off of RNGs. I mean, while we are speaking to player performance and all.

[Spider-Dan]

Are you saying monk burns didn't happen pre 2006....? Or deco weapon burns with war or drk dual wielding with march? Because if so holy shit lol

You don't seem to have much to say beyond "OMG did you just say that?" so I'll be brief:

Between the WS TP nerf (spring '04) and the RNG nerf (July '05), RNG was the unquestioned, unchallenged god of physical damage dealers. Any claims to the contrary are so brazenly revisionist as to be laughable.

So I guess you technically could have grabbed a group of ninjas or warriors and done almost exactly what people were doing 2 years later, but if you were doing that then, you were doing a damned good job of keeping it secret. The only non-RNG DD of note were KRT MNKs, primarily because 1) MNK gets damage bonus on bones and 2) RNG takes damage penalty on bones.

It's just like saying RDM/NIN was the best tank during RoZ. Yes, the mechanics were still all there, but no one was using them at the time. If someone wants to claim that he was some visionary that was years ahead of everyone else, he should show his work.