Comments from the Devs

[Takiwaki]

Even at +700mab Thundara didn't hit too much/or at all harder than other peoples weaponskills.

It did have a 14s recast though.

Hmm? that was kinda out of nowhere =/, I think the discussion was about elemental changes.

But as far as melee vs mage, I do hope its more balanced this time around also

[Eagleheart]

Even at +700mab Thundara didn't hit too much/or at all harder than other peoples weaponskills.

It did have a 14s recast though.

Dunno, noticed quite a gap between entry-level BLMs and entry-level melee at Garuda. o.O But I concur, the low recast was definitely a major factor.

[Fievel]

Hmm? that was kinda out of nowhere =/, I think the discussion was about elemental changes.

Read Eaglehearts post, Church's response wasn't out of nowhere.

[Takiwaki]

Read Eaglehearts post, Church's response wasn't out of nowhere.

I read it, sorry. I just meant that its a different thing entirely than the elemental changes that was mentioned.

[Eagleheart]

It's probably my fault XD ...I have a habit of editing my old posts stream-of-consciousness... should probably stop doing that...

[Takiwaki]

I think the point of the changes is to avoid these imbalances in the first place, which makes sense. It will take some time to get used to it.

[Eagleheart]

Whatever one's opinion about Dev Team's latest ideas, it seems to have brought the good posters out of lurking on the OF. >_> Seeing more intelligent posts today than in the preceding month worth of testing.

Not sure what that says about OF, but there it is.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I believe the combo bonus on Thundara basically provided a huge AMB boost to the casting of the spell. It may have even capped out the bonus you could give that spell in AMB. Last I had read it was like +500 or +550 methinks. Would need a source that I can't find right now.

[Eagleheart]

Pardon the elemental slang here, but I do believe there's going to be a firestorm about this one, come phase three. XD

[Sigmakan]

Pardon the elemental slang here, but I do believe there's going to be a firestorm about this one, come phase three. XD

Hopefully the flood of information will quench that firestorm.

[Eagleheart]

Hopefully the flood of information will quench that firestorm.

I see what you did there. ._.

I've probably made thirty posts in that thread today. >_> ...I'm a little frustrated with the reasoning over there, at this point.

[Alkar]

The problem with the system used in 1.0 wasn't that obvious back then but it was going to show up eventually. BLM's main source of damage was the thunder line.
Now let's introduce enemies that resist Thunder according to the old elemental wheel and you have... a useless job.
This new system ensures that something like this doesn't happen so I honestly don't see what's wrong with it. I think this falls in line with the "gimme FFXI 2.0".

[miokomioko]

I had always preferred a "classic" element system and wished it was much more potent in XI/XIV. However, this is the only route left to go since they made the irreversible decision to split access to the 6 elements in half between two classes.

[Eagleheart]

You are probably right. -_- ...that's kind of depressing, really...

[Cutriss]

The problem with the system used in 1.0 wasn't that obvious back then but it was going to show up eventually. BLM's main source of damage was the thunder line.
Now let's introduce enemies that resist Thunder according to the old elemental wheel and you have... a useless job.
This new system ensures that something like this doesn't happen so I honestly don't see what's wrong with it. I think this falls in line with the "gimme FFXI 2.0".

That seems less of a problem with BLM and more of a problem with Thunder. Or more accurately, a problem with Fire and Blizzard.

I had always preferred a "classic" element system and wished it was much more potent in XI/XIV. However, this is the only route left to go since they made the irreversible decision to split access to the 6 elements in half between two classes.

I don't think it's "irreversible". Can't be specific but I get the impression from the OF post that BLM won't just be limited to Ice/Fire/Lightning anymore. THM might be, but BLM may not.

[Takiwaki]

The classic elemental system was weak, for example in more recent games instead of just having mobs weak to ice or fire etc, each element provided some function beyond dmg, for example in D&D neverwinter, control spells were mainly ice based, everytime you use an ice based attack it would stack until the enemy froze in place, this actually showed on the mob. Or casting ground based ice spells for a cripple gravity type effect. Water attacks caused knock backs etc. Or single target spells that shattered on impact causing splash dmg to surrounding mobs.

There is so much more that can be done besides the tried and true wheel. I am hoping they do add function. I think the elements are going to remain split, where stone water and wind would be support based. Only time will tell lol

[Lucavi]

The classic elemental system was weak, for example in more recent games instead of just having mobs weak to ice or fire etc, each element provided some function beyond dmg, for example in D&D neverwinter, control spells were mainly ice based, everytime you use an ice based attack it would stack until the enemy froze in place, this actually showed on the mob. Or casting ground based ice spells for a cripple gravity type effect. Water attacks caused knock backs etc. Or single target spells that shattered on impact causing splash dmg to surrounding mobs.

There is so much more that can be done besides the tried and true wheel. I am hoping they do add function.

This. Conj already has a taste of where it should be going with different elements having different effects, instead of the standard XI logic of "skip earth, as is always worse than thunder, save for that one boss that is weak to earth". Baselining spells and granting them effects instead of always additional damage is not only a way to allow for a class to always have use through its different spells, but also allows for additional effects to be placed on the spells through talents or gear set-pieces, further allowing the player to specialize or enhance the class.

The whole "10 blms cast thundaga III to clear it!" should either stick with XI, or be retired to the history museum.

[Eagleheart]

This. Conj already has a taste of where it should be going with different elements having different effects, instead of the standard XI logic of "skip earth, as is always worse than thunder, save for that one boss that is weak to earth". Baselining spells and granting them effects instead of always additional damage is not only a way to allow for a class to always have use through its different spells, but also allows for additional effects to be placed on the spells through talents or gear set-pieces, further allowing the player to specialize or enhance the class.

The whole "10 blms cast thundaga III to clear it!" should either stick with XI, or be retired to the history museum.

Don't think that FFXI's elemental system can be considered to be a good example of an elemental wheel, though. o.o ...which is to say that it was actually very poorly designed.

EDIT: When you stop and think about it, isn't this all just going to be yet another reason to favor X class over Y class? I realize that we are just tossing around examples at the moment, but if a mob is weak to Ice magic and that enables reliable landing of Bind/Paralysis/what have you, and it has an appreciable effect, is that not a reason to favor a class capable of performing that function over another?

I just feel like we're going in a circle here differentiating between elements/attack types, while homogenizing them to not set any class necessarily superior to another, while granting said elements additional effects ...that will probably end up doing that anyhow.

I mean, really, if you've got a crowd control effect that lands very reliably if you have a bevy of BLMs handy, is that not a reason for class stacking?

Are we not chasing our own tail here? o_o

http://www.mytattooconnection.com/wp...-tattoos-7.gif

[Amiricle]

The biggest problem with ffxi's elemental wheel was the way they tiered the elements. They all should have had the same base damage varying only in affinity / resist. Stone should have done the same damage as thunder on a neutral mob.

[Lucavi]

Don't think that FFXI's elemental system can be considered to be a good example of an elemental wheel, though. o.o ...which is to say that it was actually very poorly designed.

EDIT: When you stop and think about it, isn't this all just going to be yet another reason to favor X class over Y class? I realize that we are just tossing around examples at the moment, but if a mob is weak to Ice magic and that enables reliable landing of Bind/Paralysis/what have you, and it has an appreciable effect, is that not a reason to favor a class capable of performing that function over another?

To answer this, I'll ask you to play another modern MMO. Most MMOs have roughly 8 types of "debuffs", and spread them all across the class board. Raids consist of groups of these classes rallying up to make sure that enough types of each needed debuff are provided. When both balanced and distributed properly, class-stacking becomes irrelevant based on debuffs, and becomes more about specific damage output. This is why in games like WoW, people whine more about buffs and nerfs affecting maximum DPS, and not affecting who can provide what debuff to whom. This wasn't always the case, but as WoW started moving away from CC-heavy fights, it became less about who had the almighty root or snare, and more about who could keep lots of DoTs on, while still delivering good spike damage.

For the interest of discussion, one can associate these DoTs with certain abilities in 2.0 (won't go into them because NDA and such) that are beginning to act as more of a combination of damage + Dot, instead of the XI tradition of having Dots hit for 0 damage initially, while ticking, and straight DPS abilities hitting for a solid number, with no dots.

In short, no, this won't lead to a ton of class stacking simply on the merits of who can provide what DoT effect to what spell or ability, because the genre, as a whole, is moving away from needing pure CC, which doesn't always equal "Effects" or "DoTs". Until you start having boss fights that require large amounts of bind to be applied, and only design 2 classes that can effectively apply a bind, you aren't going to see class stacking, and those are exactly the types of situations that SE is looking to avoid in this game.

What is more likely to happen is class stacking based on spike damage vs. DOT damage in certain PVE raid events rendering one or the other useless, but that exists in every MMO, and its up to the devs to observe and react to trends that the playerbase seeks to exploit or favor when damage is a concern.