Comments from the Devs

[Scythiroth]

The biggest problem with ffxi's elemental wheel was the way they tiered the elements. They all should have had the same base damage varying only in affinity / resist. Stone should have done the same damage as thunder on a neutral mob.

Kind of off topic, but they are actually changing it to be this way in the near future, I think.

[Charismatic]

Kind of off topic, but they are actually changing it to be this way in the near future, I think.

They're not.

[Scythiroth]

They're not.

Hmm, thought they were talking about doing that or something similar. Oh well, haven't played that game in a long time, most likely never going back either. >.>

[Eagleheart]

What is more likely to happen is class stacking based on spike damage vs. DOT damage in certain PVE raid events rendering one or the other useless, but that exists in every MMO, and its up to the devs to observe and react to trends that the playerbase seeks to exploit or favor when damage is a concern.

I have not played a great wealth of MMOs, and thus I will concede your larger point in this post, because to be blatantly honest, I haven't seen buffs/debuffs managed that way in any MMO I have played. ( >_>) I've been in Vindictus, XI, XIV, TERA, and STO. Oh, and Lineage, but that doesn't count. I hope you are right and that this ends up being a good thing.

Nonetheless, the reason behind the removal of elemental bonus damage is class balance, which can be read as class damage potential.

Entirely removing the concept of elemental weaknesses is the worst of all possible solutions. To me, it is an admission of a lack of creative thinking in dealing with the elemental idea altogether. (o.O ) I posted a lot about this today, but it seems that I'm in a very small minority on this, which is distressing.

In any event, I snipped this last part of your post out to highlight what I think is the painful/funny part of this whole debacle, and that is that the removal of the elemental wheel is going to do absolutely nothing in terms of class balancing, because it was already just short of irrelevant in 1.0. ._. This is a false flag argument on the dev's part, and it's very disheartening to see them completely miss the point when it comes to class balance.

Ultimately, I should not be surprised, but I am. ; ;

EDIT: Also, I've heard the thing about the elements in XI being reworked from three different individuals today. There may be some legitimacy to it.

XD I've had a sufficiently bad day, in tandem with this news outta XIV, that I am actually re-installing XI and patching.

Please pity me. ; ;

[solracht]

Hmm, thought they were talking about doing that or something similar. Oh well, haven't played that game in a long time, most likely never going back either. >.>

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...for-the-Future

[Taru Tacos]

Could you elaborate on what makes the elemental wheel intrinsically more creative or necessary than another system, such as giving the elementals similar damage but differing secondary effects?

I'm having trouble seeing what the big allure or compelling argument is for it outside of the FFXI 2.0 thing and even then FFXI's wheel was muddled by the differing base strengths wthin the same tier of spells. If you have a boss that's weak to fire, then you would use your fire element spells and if elemental weakness plays a significant role then you would need some large incentive to ever deviate from that. That doesn't seem more creative or exciting than maybe something like choosing your spells based on the desired secondary effect for whatever situation is occurring at that point in the fight.

As for the FFXI thing, you were sort of right. They're not making the base damage of the spells equal but they are making changes with the intent of having the damage vary less within the same tier of spells.
Edit: Whoops, didn't see sol's post but I guess he already covered that.

[Alkar]

The biggest problem with ffxi's elemental wheel was the way they tiered the elements. They all should have had the same base damage varying only in affinity / resist. Stone should have done the same damage as thunder on a neutral mob.

Well, that's asking to have 6-8 copies of the same spell with a different graphical animation. What's the point exactly? Casting Stone over Thunder because the mob is weak to earth isn't gonna bring more depth into the game. Having different spells, each with a different purpose, and knowing when and how to use them will.

[Eagleheart]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...for-the-Future

Dagnabit, looks like Matsui's trying to rake my cash away from me again.

Terribly fascinating post, that. ( >_>) Yep I'll be playing XI while waiting for beta phases.

[Eagleheart]

Well, that's asking to have 6-8 copies of the same spell with a different graphical animation. What's the point exactly? Casting Stone over Thunder because the mob is weak to earth isn't gonna bring more depth into the game. Having different spells, each with a different purpose, and knowing when and how to use them will.

The problem is that everyone, dev team included, can only see this as a one-or-the-other kind of situation.

\(o.o)/ Simply because Shiva is weak to Fire does not mean that there cannot be a situation, or many situations, wherein you instead cast Water, or Stone, or Wind. Heck, even Ice. It is up to the Dev Team to conceive of those situations and make those added effects workable. Even if they did that, though, that'd be no reason to say "Okay, we have an entirely new system, let's throw out whatever worked before."

Also, having 6-8 copies of the same spell, as you say, allows for personal choices in development. When XIV first launched, I was excited by the idea that I might be a specialist when it comes to Thunder and Fire, those being my favorite elements. (O.o ) As we know, things did not pan out well... but it wasn't because of the elemental wheel, nor offering characters specialization options. I am kinda disappointed that I never got to be a thunder mage. ( >_>) ...or a Ky Kiske clone, but whatever.

Another thing! Elemental potency materia - at this point, probably going the way of the dodo. If there's never a time where casting Thunder is a better idea than casting any other element, and we're just rotating everything as they come up, then a person would have to be crazy to have potency boosts for a single element. \o.o/ In our quest to be diverse, we end up becoming shallow - an interesting situation, no?

Also, it may just be me, but I have sincere doubts about the capacity of any Dev Team, even Yoshi P's, to have enough ideas for diverse added effects to each and every ability to go across the width and breadth of the FF class system. Why on earth will we care about having RDM or DRK if they end up having the same basic function? What will the effective difference be between Dark Knight and Dragoon? Wherein will Samurai find its identity in comparison to the other teeming hordes of DD? Just how many Added Effect: X can be thought up before Dev Team begins to realize hey, homogenizing all damage types might have been a bad idea?

[Taru Tacos]

Wait, you're saying that the dev team needs to be creative enough to come up with added effects that result in "many situations" in which a player would want to cast Water, Wind, Stone, or Ice despite Fire being the signficantly better damage option.

Then you're saying that you don't think the dev team has the capacity to come up with diverse enough effects to differentiate the classes if damage were equal? I am lost.

[Amiricle]

Well said Eagleheart.
Even if was just graphical options, that would be enough for a lot of people to specialize in certain elements over the others. For added effects though, there are a plethora of options even if they are as simple as lowering resists like the ninjutsu element wheel and could be made different per spell by class. Say a blm casts blizzard and it makes the target weaker to blunt weapons, but a rdm casting the same spell weakens the target further to ice or paralyze or whatever.

[Alkar]

The problem is that everyone, dev team included, can only see this as a one-or-the-other kind of situation.

\(o.o)/ Simply because Shiva is weak to Fire does not mean that there cannot be a situation, or many situations, wherein you instead cast Water, or Stone, or Wind. Heck, even Ice. It is up to the Dev Team to conceive of those situations and make those added effects workable. Even if they did that, though, that'd be no reason to say "Okay, we have an entirely new system, let's throw out whatever worked before."

Also, having 6-8 copies of the same spell, as you say, allows for personal choices in development. When XIV first launched, I was excited by the idea that I might be a specialist when it comes to Thunder and Fire, those being my favorite elements. (O.o ) As we know, things did not pan out well... but it wasn't because of the elemental wheel, nor offering characters specialization options. I am kinda disappointed that I never got to be a thunder mage. ( >_>) ...or a Ky Kiske clone, but whatever.

Another thing! Elemental potency materia - at this point, probably going the way of the dodo. If there's never a time where casting Thunder is a better idea than casting any other element, and we're just rotating everything as they come up, then a person would have to be crazy to have potency boosts for a single element. \o.o/ In our quest to be diverse, we end up becoming shallow - an interesting situation, no?

Also, it may just be me, but I have sincere doubts about the capacity of any Dev Team, even Yoshi P's, to have enough ideas for diverse added effects to each and every ability to go across the width and breadth of the FF class system. Why on earth will we care about having RDM or DRK if they end up having the same basic function? What will the effective difference be between Dark Knight and Dragoon? Wherein will Samurai find its identity in comparison to the other teeming hordes of DD? Just how many Added Effect: X can be thought up before Dev Team begins to realize hey, homogenizing all damage types might have been a bad idea?

-Well, that's exactly what this new system is meant to do. Except your Ice spells in this specific situation won't completely rely on the additional effect.
-That sounds nice in theory yet we all know it's never gonna happen. You can decide to be an earth mage if you want but if you're fighting something that resists earth you won't be as efficient as someone else with a different element and you'll either have to play another class or respec (in which case the choice doesn't make any sense).
From what I understand you're simply asking to have this new system but implement a wheel for the only purpose of gimping damage on a target with a certain elemental resistance. I honestly don't see the point.

[Churchill]

Uh, because it was in XI? duh

[Eagleheart]

Wait, you're saying that the dev team needs to be creative enough to come up with added effects that result in "many situations" in which a player would want to cast Water, Wind, Stone, or Ice despite Fire being the signficantly better damage option.

Then you're saying that you don't think the dev team has the capacity to come up with diverse enough effects to differentiate the classes if damage were equal? I am lost.

This is why I proofread my posts about a million times after posting. (>x_x) I leave loose threads everywhere.

Dev Team DOES need to be that creative if they kick the elemental wheel to the curb. I sincerely doubt they can be, moreso when we have a dozen plus jobs available down the line.

Well said Eagleheart.
Even if was just graphical options, that would be enough for a lot of people to specialize in certain elements over the others. For added effects though, there are a plethora of options even if they are as simple as lowering resists like the ninjutsu element wheel and could be made different per spell by class. Say a blm casts blizzard and it makes the target weaker to blunt weapons, but a rdm casting the same spell weakens the target further to ice or paralyze or whatever.

\o.o/ Things like what Amiricle said here is a really good example of the possible added effects one could tack on to spells and abilities. However, at this point, we still do not know if they have any intention of giving us merits, talent trees, or anything at all.

I do not think that simply having Yoshi P at the helm is going to bring fresh creativity into the minds of the entire Dev Team. Inspiration, yes, but the dev team members are not all fresh off the turnip truck. I doubt their capacity for original thinking.

-Well, that's exactly what this new system is meant to do. Except your Ice spells in this specific situation won't completely rely on the additional effect.
-That sounds nice in theory yet we all know it's never gonna happen. You can decide to be an earth mage if you want but if you're fighting something that resists earth you won't be as efficient as someone else with a different element and you'll either have to play another class or respec (in which case the choice doesn't make any sense).
From what I understand you're simply asking to have this new system but implement a wheel for the only purpose of gimping damage on a target with a certain elemental resistance. I honestly don't see the point.

You are quite likely right about it being shiny and cool only in theory. Doesn't make it any less disappointing. ;_; And it wouldn't be just...

Man, I dunno. I cannot say what I am actually thinking due to NDA, but I think that if I could, we might find some common ground on this. >_< ...can't wait for open beta...

[Rionel]

Some traditions just gotta be let go for the sake of a genre change. Your skeptism of the team being able to deliver is understandable as we don't have any idea how phase 3 is going to be like, but when it does, I would like to think there'll be relief in just knowing for sure where we're headed.

Plus there'll be things like limit breaks that may factor into this as well, another thing that we don't know anything about. It's all pretty much up in the air at this point and all we can do is be patient.

So, you know. Don't worry too much about this!

[Eagleheart]

Eh. I just think back as to how Black Mage was done in 1.0... and I'd really prefer to avoid that again.

Like as not, though, the matter is set in stone. ~.~ And I am worrying over something that cannot be changed. Bleh.

[Charismatic]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...for-the-Future

Not sure why you quoted me... unless to agree?

[Gulkeeva]

Eh. I just think back as to how Black Mage was done in 1.0... and I'd really prefer to avoid that again.

Like as not, though, the matter is set in stone. ~.~ And I am worrying over something that cannot be changed. Bleh.

Major changes will most likely happen in phase 1+2, so if you got suggestions, and can fight the spam of crazy trolls on the forums and be seen by the dev team, you could potentially help with the game maybe...!
I don't think many major changes will happen beyond Phase 3... most likely minor tweaks to what mass they toss in phase 3

[solracht]

Not sure why you quoted me... unless to agree?

Yes. I was just posting what they said about the elemental changes. I'd have quoted the post below yours but somehow I missed it at the time of my post.

[Waraji]

I'm fkin reposting this shit cuz gd it needs to be at the top of every page right now.

Spoiler: show