Comments from the Devs

[Alkar]

I'm not sure how they're planning to add Primals after launch at this point. For those clearing Bahamut a new Primal won't do much because that gear will be weaker than what they already have.
Unless there's a level cap increase with these patches and those fights are meant to fill the gap.

[Karinastar]

I had heard that both Crystal Tower and Bahamut Labyrinth will be 24-man. I could be mistaken (and hope I am) but I thought I read this in a dev post. As for requiring Relic, it sounds like the system is moving into a very strict gear hierarchy, where it doesn't matter how well you play, if you don't have the appropriate gear you simply cannot clear the content. I can't imagine they'll keep the Relic quest at its 1.0 level of tedium if it's a "requirement" for the raids, or it'd be one of the most awful content gates in MMO history. But I'll freely admit, I'm a bit butthurt that my Relic is gonna be "entry level" gear.

Also, this is probably veering a bit off topic and if so I apologize, but am I the only one who just doesn't like large group content as the be-all-end-all way to get the best gear? I'm fine with it being in the game, but I always was more fond of a tightly tuned single party event kinda like Darnus fight giving the best stuff. I feel like you can have a much higher individual skill ceiling for small group content by design, and every member is critical to success. It feels a lot more "epic" to me confronting a boss with a few of my good friends as well versus a huge group. Would be nice if down the line they do like WoW and have a 8 man mode with similar/just ever so slightly lesser drops for the raids.

[Kachiko]

Is tightly tuned, 5 man content harder, or is getting 20+ people to get out of the fire, in < 2 seconds (repeatedly) content harder? The eternal MMO debate.

[Alkar]

There's a lot of potential for alliance raids imo if done well. They could even set up some fights like in past FF games where you had multiple teams taking on different parts of the same boss at the same time.

[Churchill]

1. Relics being a part of the hierarchy instead of at the top of the hierarchy is pretty dumb. XI just did this same shit where they made gated/tiered content and the stuff you can get on the AH is better than the final form of Relic weapons. That is to say, an item you bought for cheap or farmed in 2 runs is better than an item that costs 250M+. It would be better if they were outside but still better for a few events, with the quest to upgrade them to final (current gear check) form being available immediately. This is doubly important because there are currently 7 of them.

2. I am almost positive CT is 24 man, and I'll also say that raid size grouping is good because it makes having guilds a reality. You can recruit players easier based on what content you're on and how well you are clearing it/how often. GW2 style no trinity 5 man dungeons no progression is terrible, terrible for keeping guilds alive and terrible for enjoyments sake. Literally the only people who can enjoy PVE in GW2 are people who are terrible at video games and have finally found their home, loners, and people who have a few friends they play with who all enjoy grinding ridiculously easy content to make shinies.

Gathering people for a Raid is shitty as is managing 24 people, but you really end up missing them when you play a game that has nothing to separate you/your guild.

[Katlan]

Just sounds like it's moving in a WoW Raid direction. W/ isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just don't see certain tools working well in such a large environment. With how fast mobs build up resistance to debuffs and stuff, how will it be when you have 5+ ppl in a raid who can apply the same debuff? It gets convoluted.

But maybe I'm just mistakenly comparing it to a WoW raid when it will be more like Dynamis. I guess w/ all the recent mmo's I like smaller man, yet hard combat. Like 16 ppl would be much more enjoyable to me than 24 man content.

Gathering people for a Raid is shitty as is managing 24 people, but you really end up missing them when you play a game that has nothing to separate you/your guild.

I agree w/ this though. All the recent mmo's that have focused on small, yet hard content has really diminished the significance of being in a guild and what a "guild" used to mean

[Grey Jorildyn]

With 24-man content there is also the possibility that good guilds in 1.0, which generally kept their numbers low, may find likely alliances among their server. That's one option anyway. The other is obviously to recruit up to and over 24 to do it within guild. Like Church is saying, PvE progression is really important to the guild scene. Any time you can do things as a group it builds community. Anytime you can get things done between guilds with team-ups, it builds community. What sucks is the FF-online community generally shies away from team-ups since it was so taboo for many players in XI.

[Karinastar]

Definitely really good points. In 1.0 as long as you had 8 good players, anyone else in your LS was fluff pretty much and would wind up getting left out. It did always suck to have to rotate people in for runs just so they could get a shot at the content as well. I agree that 16 would probably be a happier medium for me as well. You'd probably be able to get everyone in unless you had a huge LS, and you wouldn't have to try and manage such a huge group.

I led/was a leader in a couple of successful LSes in XI, and it was definitely a different feeling than leading the LS in XIV for sure. XI felt a lot more formal, and there was that prestige to having a strong LS that could do stuff like Odin, and could manage enough people at 3am on a Tuesday to bring down Tiamat, etc. The tradeoff was that there was no way I could be buddies with everyone, and of course there was the occasional bout of LS drama when someone got the Ridillz and someone else felt they didn't deserve it etc. XIV it was a lot more personal, and closer to a group of friends than anything else. I'm not sure which I like more personally, but I'm not a competitive person really so that probably skews my view a bit. I definitely don't want facerolls like GW2 though, if there's a single party event that drops BIS items I want it to be a challenge. I guess I'm just hoping for a balance, as a LS leader it's a lot easier to set things up when there's a large variety of things to do, and having some events where I don't need most of the LS on to progress us in a meaningful way would be nice.

Also, totally agree on the relic thing. I had figured that at least there'd be an upgrade quest available at the start to make them BIS again, and they'd continue to be something that average/casual players wouldn't need to bother with, while giving people who spent the time to get/maintain them an edge.

Edit: Yeah, I can understand the team up thing too. In XI if you needed to team up, you were a gimp LS and everyone made fun of you. With the way endgame was set up with Kings and stuff, it was hard to not see anyone wearing a different crest as anything but someone who was just going to impede your/your LSes progress. Hopefully ARR will foster a more cooperative environment, because I like being friends with everyone!

[Lucavi]

I'm not sure how they're planning to add Primals after launch at this point. For those clearing Bahamut a new Primal won't do much because that gear will be weaker than what they already have.
Unless there's a level cap increase with these patches and those fights are meant to fill the gap.

I dunno, sidegrades? That's what all the XI-lovers want, at least.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I was a leader in XI for several years and now a leader in XIV since launch as well so I know exactly what you mean by "formal". It comes down to content design. XI designed content for alliances in mind from the start and every event began with alliances until they were relegated to strong 6-12 person parties. Alliances were available at launch for that reason. Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, Sea, etc all that stuff was alliance content. Pretty much right up until they added Assault, you did everything with more than 6 people, BCNM excluded since that was "optional" content. XIV didn't start this way. It made progression more intimate. A party of 8 was all you needed and you could "afford" to have the rest of your LS be "fluff". Not all LS did this (mine did not) but it was common and it got you through everything offered up to 1.23. Now we're tasked with bringing a much larger crowd to events and seeing how that works out. The hope is that SE has made the content meaningful and worthwhile. Also there has to be enough content where alliances are "needed". It won't do guilds or the game any good if there are 10 events that used one party and 1 event that needed three.

We all know how large alliance stuff goes. We go for the gear and we stay for friends. The latter part is the meta leaders have to deal with and many will not be prepared. It's the catalyst for how and why guilds fall apart and smash together in the long-run. The key is not to get comfortable and/or set in your ways. Being flexible, ready to handle any and all situations that come at you is a big part of keeping a LS together, whether it has 8 people in it or 24. For those that enjoy handling smaller numbers or simply can't push the envelope enough to attract more skilled players, I hope they do find success in team-ups. It would be a big step forward for the community in general.

[Eagleheart]

I dunno, sidegrades? That's what all the XI-lovers want, at least.

For amusement, you should go check out the FFXI patch notes from yesterday. Specifically, the new weapons and their complete lack of side-gradiness.

There's a lot of rage goin' on over there.

A lot. XD

I have reservations about the 24-man raids because to be blatantly honest, I don't want to go back to leading a herd of 20+ folks every other night. As Grey said, might result in smaller crews teaming up.

A lot of headaches come from large raids, but I do believe that the focus on very small parties (TERA and its five-man raids, for instance) has led to a decline in social interaction in just about every MMO out there, and let's be honest, without a bunch of folks to yak it up with as you run screaming from some nameless monstrosity of the night, is an MMO a wise (or fun) use of one's time?

>_> My $0.02.

[Kachiko]

1. Relics being a part of the hierarchy instead of at the top of the hierarchy is pretty dumb. XI just did this same shit where they made gated/tiered content and the stuff you can get on the AH is better than the final form of Relic weapons. That is to say, an item you bought for cheap or farmed in 2 runs is better than an item that costs 250M+. It would be better if they were outside but still better for a few events, with the quest to upgrade them to final (current gear check) form being available immediately. This is doubly important because there are currently 7 of them..

SE put themselves in this bind though; they wouldn't just give people the most powerful weapons, for the new content that they designed, as it's that much faster to burn through, but they need to do better than Magician Trials to upgrade them to the best versions.

[Niiro]

Definitely really good points. In 1.0 as long as you had 8 good players, anyone else in your LS was fluff pretty much and would wind up getting left out. It did always suck to have to rotate people in for runs just so they could get a shot at the content as well. I agree that 16 would probably be a happier medium for me as well. You'd probably be able to get everyone in unless you had a huge LS, and you wouldn't have to try and manage such a huge group.

I generally prefer smaller group content because it puts greater value on each person involved. Generally the bigger a group event gets the less each person is contributing, which to me makes it less fun overall. It's also much more conducive to getting to know people in-game.

Basically if an event is difficult enough to require 24 well equipped, well informed players all on their A-game with no DCs or afks or [insert x factor] then organization becomes a nightmare.

If the event requires 24 people but is dumbed down such that you can complete it with a "good enough" group of pickups then it devalues the participation of each person involved and obviously the challenge of the event as a whole.

(also fuck me if I can remember that many people's names, idk if it's a tumor or if I'm just a jerk but I can't for the life of me remember who people are unless I've spent a considerable amount of time interacting with them, if not on a personal level at least in the context of a small group)

[Takiwaki]

I would not mind side grades if it allows for multiple roles or its needed for certain encounters but because there is no gear swapping in 14 its going to be limited.

[Karinastar]

A lot of headaches come from large raids, but I do believe that the focus on very small parties (TERA and its five-man raids, for instance) has led to a decline in social interaction in just about every MMO out there, and let's be honest, without a bunch of folks to yak it up with as you run screaming from some nameless monstrosity of the night, is an MMO a wise (or fun) use of one's time?

I dunno, a lot of people like to just tackle content with their group of friends and are content to exist in that bubble. Not saying that's always a bad (or good) thing, but it's definitely a different way of doing things that isn't so compatible with a heavy emphasis on large group content. I'm guilty of it myself at times, I'm friendly and helpful to pretty much everyone but I honestly barely knew anyone outside my LS in XIV. I think the only reason that anyone outside my LS even knew I existed was the fact that my FFXIV videos are inexplicably fairly popular and that I was a LS leader. In XI, I knew a lot more of the community at large, just by the nature of how that game was designed. I guess it's all a matter of how important you think the "Massively" part of MMO should be.

SE put themselves in this bind though; they wouldn't just give people the most powerful weapons, for the new content that they designed, as it's that much faster to burn through, but they need to do better than Magician Trials to upgrade them to the best versions.

I think the most elegant solution would be to start relics at around/a bit better than they plan to, not make them a requirement, and then have a path to upgrade them via doing content that would ultimately let them keep their BiS status. That way 1.0 players won't feel like they wasted effort or be annoyed that they watered down the quest because suddenly everyone needs one.

[arus2001]

Also, this is probably veering a bit off topic and if so I apologize, but am I the only one who just doesn't like large group content as the be-all-end-all way to get the best gear?

No, if for any reason, my life doesn't guarantee the ability to log in at 8pm EST every day to run scheduled events to maintain standing where in-game point systems aren't present. I also have no love for old scheduled XI events where "Be here at X time!" always turned into X+15-to-45m. Naturally, the more people you introduce into the equation, the more their RL risks becoming a hindrance in some manner. For the people who can pull that off, good for them, but basically being told I'm artificially a lesser player because no amount of skill can make up for a gear disparity just makes me crave alternative progression paths all the more. The whole "we deserve better gear because we do stuff with more people!" line doesn't hold much weight with me since it's often just a couple leaders doing the grunt work while everyone just punches their time card and sheeps along to commands or a strategy someone else came up with they read off a site. This unfortunately tricks some people into thinking they're better players than they really are, when it's often more a matter of luck in simply finding the right people to mesh with relative to their play time.

In the end, they lose nothing if people gain similar gear in different ways. Communities are still communities even if they're a bunch of 5-man cells compared to 25ish. Those outside your circle don't matter as long as they're not hindering progress akin to the old HNM days of XI. Granted, some feel drama like that builds community. All I saw back then was a lot of immaturity and frustration via quasi-PvP. Even within my LS, there were people I loathed, but had to tolerate because they were somehow friends with enough people to not be considered a nuisance. Honestly, if I wanted that kind of shit, I would've just worked overtime or something and probably get more progress via buying gil if I REALLY wanted it. So, you could say I like having a tighter grip on my friendships, but even then, getting them all together at the right time(s) can be tricky.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I don't know how else a guild runs outside of making a schedule. As people get older their lives become more and more scheduled to a point. That's just how things get done in guild management. You must have some really bad experiences with sheep. What you describes sucks and sounds like 90% of guilds that pretend to be "end game" and just have leaders that need bodies to fill slots to gear themselves out ;x Grass can be greener on the other side and there's plenty of guilds out there that are run well. They all run on schedules though. When you're dealing with older players you're less likely to have them show up much later than when a planned event starts, in my experience. Them college kids suck at showing up on time!

[Raldo]

I consider getting 8 people together to all agree to do something at a single point in time an amazing feat, so 24 just boggles the mind. I'll be wishing for generous amounts of 4~8 person content, and hope that my tight-knit small group can find a couple other small groups to bond with when necessary.

[arus2001]

I don't know how else a guild runs outside of making a schedule. As people get older their lives become more and more scheduled to a point. That's just how things get done in guild management. You must have some really bad experiences with sheep. What you describes sucks and sounds like 90% of guilds that pretend to be "end game" and just have leaders that need bodies to fill slots to gear themselves out ;x Grass can be greener on the other side and there's plenty of guilds out there that are run well. They all run on schedules though. When you're dealing with older players you're less likely to have them show up much later than when a planned event starts, in my experience. Them college kids suck at showing up on time!

Well, I can add to the sucktitude of incidents where "free time" incidents would be like, "Hey guys, can you help me with X?" and myself and others would be like, "Okay, sure." And it gets done. I ask for help? LS chat goes silent without a single volunteer. Even funnier when you catch wind of gossip on how one guy you helped claims you do nothing for the shell because he was EU and our paths rarely crossed. This ultimately contributed to my canceling of my XI sub, but there were other RL factors like both my grandparents falling ill, taking care of them, and them eventually dying about a year apart from each other. I've got some other less... morbid family issues going on these days, but needless to say, days aren't consistently the same for me. At the very least, I'd like to think Karina played with me enough on Aion to feel I'm not a total douchenozzle. x.x

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with scheduling stuff. It's when it's, "BE THERE OR ELSE!" that I draw the line. Those people aren't worth my time. Unfortunately, it's rough finding the people who are when you may be playing at 9am one day, 3pm the next, 10pm after that, then 5pm the day after for anywhere from an hour to eight. As such, shit you can tackle on your own without forcing people to wait or drop what they're doing has appeal both for my sense of progression and not hindering theirs. Some people just can't grasp that, though, and would rather declare I deserve nothing out of the genre or should just go find some other mythical game where shit's just mailed to my inbox or something.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Sounds like MMOs don't really suit your schedule and/or patience level