Comments from the Devs

[Lucavi]

I don't get the people that love WoW's Raiding, I raided Ulduar and cleared all hard modes minus Saron (quit before blizzard added the extra boss), while it was fun the first month/2 times you beat a boss, it quickly turns into a chore, killing the same bosses that do the EXACT same thing over and over is just mind-numbing boring, once you beat a boss once or twice after the first time, that's it,

So, if that's your final statement on it, then how does XIV do it better? You don't want a challenging encounter because you'll be bored of it once you clear it a few times? How is that even relevant to what we're talking about? Moreover, how would XIV be any different in terms of not only designing an initially-challenging product, but continuing to challenge you each time you attempt it? You're talking about getting bored of the content 2 months down the road - those are your own words. I don't know a game around that has boss content that continues to be as enjoyable 2 months later as it first was during the initial struggle.

Please elaborate, because I have no idea what you're trying to say other than "...well it was WoW, so I can't really look back and enjoy it for what it was."

[Churchill]

I'm not sure if you realize this, but FFXIV isn't going to have the most advanced MMO AI in the history of games that bases threat off of who is the most valuable to the party and targets people who are weakened to finish them off.

Every encounter is always going to be the same, minus the order something may happen. The fights may not be as scripted as some of WoW's fights, but they are still easy to predict and manage. If Ifrit does a TP move every 22s, I don't really need to know if it's going to be Radiant Plumes, Jump/Dash, or Eruption, I simply need to know that after the swipe @22s, I need to be in position and ready to move.

To add to this, the majority of people who play(ed) this game were unable to beat much of the content (including story missions) that existed in 1.23. Unless the game becomes drastically easier (which would turn off anyone who has raided outside of XI/didn't fail at raiding outside of XI/didn't get carried at raiding outside of XI) then we're looking at a game where <1% of the community is able to beat content when level/gear appropriate. I'd be far more worried that content is made easier without any influence of add-ons before I'd be worried that add-ons will create the same issues they did in WoW. In 1.23 Yoshi made a lot of comments that assured us this wouldn't be the case (eg: making content harder until his test team can barely beat it, then making it 10x harder than that), but once this game goes live and the staff is cut and it becomes about SE's money then we're potentially back to typical SE behavior.

[Waraji]

Wtf happened to this thread in the past 12 hours.

[Kurokikaze]

I don't get the people that love WoW's Raiding, I raided Ulduar and cleared all hard modes minus Saron (quit before blizzard added the extra boss), while it was fun the first month/2 times you beat a boss, it quickly turns into a chore, killing the same bosses that do the EXACT same thing over and over is just mind-numbing boring, once you beat a boss once or twice after the first time, that's it, you're not going to struggle with it anymore unless you change your party because you only have to do the exact same thing you did last time (that was my experience with Ulduar hard modes, which many of you say it was the pinnacle of WoW's Raiding).

That's why I'd hate to see something like DBM in ARR, that would mean the boss is predictable to the smallest detail, shit's like playing ouendan but easier.

And you think FFXI was better? Because it was far more predictable except for the fact that we didn't have something like DBM to point everything out.

Tiamat: Ground phase > SMN Rape -> Air Phase -> Repeat for 2 hours.
Nidhogg/Fafnir: Stand in the same spot > SC/MBs with the random HWing damaging the raid.
King Behemoth: Kite all day every day.
Adamantoise: Do damage while inside shell -> Light damage outside shell -> Repeat

I don't see your point sir.

[Hyan]

Sadly if the fact it's a gorgeous final fantasy game with bad grass isn't enough to keep you going you'll end up getting the short end of the stick.

I personally don't see what incentive SE has to make the game challenging enough for the MMO pros. Yoshida's got 100 truckload's worth of FF fans to lure in with the fanservice to keep SE's wallets full. If it works out then who needs the MMO gamers who will jump ship as soon as some other promising MMO comes out, lol.

If anything what SE needs from said gamers is the attitude that this game isn't horribly behind the rest of the genre, even though it's not WoW 2 either. Indifference is better than trashing the game.

My2cents anyway.

[Churchill]

You are aware what type of gamer Yoshi is right?

[Icarian]

So, if that's your final statement on it, then how does XIV do it better? You don't want a challenging encounter because you'll be bored of it once you clear it a few times? How is that even relevant to what we're talking about? Moreover, how would XIV be any different in terms of not only designing an initially-challenging product, but continuing to challenge you each time you attempt it? You're talking about getting bored of the content 2 months down the road - those are your own words. I don't know a game around that has boss content that continues to be as enjoyable 2 months later as it first was during the initial struggle.

Please elaborate, because I have no idea what you're trying to say other than "...well it was WoW, so I can't really look back and enjoy it for what it was."

I did enjoy WoW for what it was, I just don't get the people saying it's the best raiding system ever, I say that as an opinion

I wasn't comparing WoW's raiding to XIV's (I didn't even do a dungeon during the beta/1.0), as for making content that continues to be challenging after the first time you beat it, many single player games do it since their bosses are not choreographed, they don't do X attack at Y direction at X second interval, while this may not be applicable to a MMO enviroment, I'm sure developers can come up something about bosses doing the same moves at X time every fight, even minor variations would be enough to keep the fights fresh.

And you think FFXI was better? Because it was far more predictable except for the fact that we didn't have something like DBM to point everything out.

Tiamat: Ground phase > SMN Rape -> Air Phase -> Repeat for 2 hours.
Nidhogg/Fafnir: Stand in the same spot > SC/MBs with the random HWing damaging the raid.
King Behemoth: Kite all day every day.
Adamantoise: Do damage while inside shell -> Light damage outside shell -> Repeat

I don't see your point sir.

I didnt do much endgame in XI, but I don't think anyone on here can say with a straight face that XI was challenging in any form during fights, the hard part was getting claims, not killing things.

[Waraji]

Any takes how long before Yoshida gets dragged to another title? Or at all? Considering his already mounting success and personal PR push.

[Hyan]

You are aware what type of gamer Yoshi is right?

Yeah. How that spills over to the game still remains to be seen. As I think he's a businessman first and gamer second. Hell, he just said in a recent interview he didn't make the game more action-based like TERA and GW2 because he thinks FF gamers can't/don't want to handle it (which I agree with).

Frankly I don't see him stressing over class/PvP/raid balance etc. Stuff that MMO gamerz care about. We don't even get to test these things until the beta is a public demo.

[Churchill]

he didn't make the game more action-based like TERA and GW2 because he thinks FF gamers can't/don't want to handle it

This is not the same as making all of the game easy. If the entire game is action based, then the majority of your players will fail the majority of the time in everything they do.

If the standard is set to turn based (which APM wise it basically is) then you can ramp up the difficulty in specific encounters and leave the bunny rabbits and carebears to do their thing (masturbate to lalafell f).

[Gulkeeva]

Wtf happened to this thread in the past 12 hours.

a churchhill happened, he looks like he needs a collar to be kept in check

[Churchill]

a churchhill happened, he looks like he needs a collar to be kept in check

reported

[Hyan]

This is not the same as making all of the game easy. If the entire game is action based, then the majority of your players will fail the majority of the time in everything they do.

If the standard is set to turn based (which APM wise it basically is) then you can ramp up the difficulty in specific encounters and leave the bunny rabbits and carebears to do their thing (masturbate to lalafell f).

I know it doesn't mean that. It simply can be interpreted as Yoshi and the team not stressing over meeting the high standards of MMO pros and catering to them. They might give it a try of course, I just don't see them succeeding. Since it shouldn't be a big deal to them.

Expecting any different is setting yourself up for disappointment imo.

[Egon]

Any takes how long before Yoshida gets dragged to another title? Or at all? Considering his already mounting success and personal PR push.

He has to actually generate revenue first.

[Waraji]

a churchhill happened

Not exactly what I meant, and I quite enjoy Church's analytical approach to posting.

[Izzy]

Seriously? That's fun? Do enough DPS or lose? Is that really the only situation that gets your blood pumping anymore?

I don't really need to respond to you, since solracht pretty much said everything needed. However, watch this video and tell me if you've experienced a more complex fight than this in XI or XIV, ever.



To sum this up:

Sometimes stand next to people, but don't always stand next to people.
Stand next to someone, but not someone who you've stood next to recently.
Sometimes run away from a mob, but sometimes kill it.
Sometimes attack a green mob, sometimes attack an orange mob, but you have to look at your buffs to know which!
Don't stand in green stuff, unless you're the designated person to stand in green stuff!
Do metric asstons of damage while doing all this.
Let's not forget the healers and tanks that have to be doing their thing too!

If one person stands next to the wrong person/doesn't kill a mob/etc., you wipe and start over.

But yeah, like you said, it must just be "Do enough DPS or lose".

[Lucavi]

I did enjoy WoW for what it was, I just don't get the people saying it's the best raiding system ever, I say that as an opinion

I wasn't comparing WoW's raiding to XIV's (I didn't even do a dungeon during the beta/1.0), as for making content that continues to be challenging after the first time you beat it, many single player games do it since their bosses are not choreographed, they don't do X attack at Y direction at X second interval, while this may not be applicable to a MMO enviroment, I'm sure developers can come up something about bosses doing the same moves at X time every fight, even minor variations would be enough to keep the fights fresh.

So, your response is effectively that because single player games -sometimes- have mechanics to keep things interesting (completely debatable, but we won't go there), that this somehow invalidates WoW as an excellent example of quality raiding content? You basically admitted that you didn't think WoW's was up to par, yet cited no example of any MMO that has a superior design, instead citing an arbitrary concept - single player games - as some sort of panacea of raiding's plight, without offering a solution?

I think I'm done responding to you, sir.

@ Izzy: Ah... nostalgia... "Good news everyone! The slime is flowing again~!"

[Gokulo]

Here, have new shots

[Lucavi]

Now we've got scantily-clad catgirls dancing. No one is ever going to pick another capital city!

Well played, Yoshi.

[Azull]

I would like to go on the record as saying i do not want a musical chairs minigame in ffxiv.