Comments from the Devs

[Evane]

With the swap your MND is way lower than before, making your cures even worse. It is a nerf.

It's a stance. Increased magic attack potency and decreased healing magic potency. It's like Yonin, Innin, Berserk, Defender, Seigan and Hasso. Why would you cure in that stance?

Spoiler: show

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...an/255uypl.gif

[Charismatic]

It's a stance. Increased magic attack potency and decreased healing magic potency. It's like Yonin, Innin, Berserk, Defender, Seigan and Hasso. Why would you cure in that stance?

Spoiler: show

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...an/255uypl.gif

Sometimes you need a cure right now. The added time of deactivation, while small, could potentially mean the difference between a wipe and a near wipe.
It could be argued that you shouldn't have Cleric Stance on in any such situation but who knows what's to come?

[Gulkeeva]

Sometimes you need a cure right now. The added time of deactivation, while small, could potentially mean the difference between a wipe and a near wipe.
It could be argued that you shouldn't have Cleric Stance on in any such situation but who knows what's to come?

If they need a cure "right now" there is a THM ability (around lv 30?) that allows a THM to "instantly" cast the next spell (no idea how long the activation animation is, or if it triggers global cooldown etc) but... you got your instant if you want (and can be used on CNJ and several other classes). Then again even if it had a cast animation, if you can guesstimate ifrits "massive aoe attack at 50%(?)" you could load it up, and pop the aoe heal the instant that big blast goes off, instead of taking 2sec+ to cast it

[mightyg]

Also it's a risk reward ability. Worried about tossing out emergency cures? Don't activate the ability.

[Teknique]

Someone mentioned earlier about ps3 voice chat, Is it confirmed in game or not?

[Charismatic]

If they need a cure "right now" there is a THM ability (around lv 30?) that allows a THM to "instantly" cast the next spell (no idea how long the activation animation is, or if it triggers global cooldown etc) but... you got your instant if you want (and can be used on CNJ and several other classes). Then again even if it had a cast animation, if you can guesstimate ifrits "massive aoe attack at 50%(?)" you could load it up, and pop the aoe heal the instant that big blast goes off, instead of taking 2sec+ to cast it

Ifrit Fantasy XIV, eh?
Either way, this doesn't really address my real question as to what there is to gain (in any sense) by the nerf to Cleric Stance. Nothing stated so far has.
We've established that its a nerf and there's ways around it (to a degree) but so what? What has this done to enhance our gameplay experience? Also, would anyone claim that with the old method of play in the previous beta tests that CNJ was overpowered? If so, I guess it'd make sense to nerf it but I never got that impression.

[Lucavi]

Ifrit Fantasy XIV, eh?
Either way, this doesn't really address my real question as to what there is to gain (in any sense) by the nerf to Cleric Stance. Nothing stated so far has.
We've established that its a nerf and there's ways around it (to a degree) but so what? What has this done to enhance our gameplay experience? Also, would anyone claim that with the old method of play in the previous beta tests that CNJ was overpowered? If so, I guess it'd make sense to nerf it but I never got that impression.

Not everything is there to "enhance" your gameplay. You're bitching just to bitch at this point. Nerfs happen in games all the time. The devs saw something. It happened. It may get tweaked again. Who knows.

[Hyan]

I really dislike the people asking for B2P / F2P etc.

It'd be fine if people understood the consequences. F2P means less content updates, period. Going F2P is a sign that a dev can't support the amount of content additions P2P system demands. If it gets down to that then fine, but to think that people are so against P2P merely on principle is sickening. As if P2P has no merits of it's own. P2P means increased expectations for dev support and if the devs can meet said expectations, everyone is better off.

B2P on the other hand means even less incentive for a dev to keep updating the game aside from making expansions. SE has almost unlimited resources to keep pumping to this game on a bi-monthly basis. Why is the to-be-playerbase so against making use of the massive publisher's will to go to great lengths for their product to be seen as a success?

I have no doubts that when we pay up the sub fee, we get the content we deserve for many years to come.

It's like people are looking at the product we see today and asking "why should I pay the sub fee for what is in front of me?" That's a stupid question to ask, because you pay sub fee for the expectations of what you're getting in the (near) future as a content addition, not what you're getting on the launch day.

[Spider-Dan]

You seem to forget that in 1.0 all classes were useless and irrelevant.

This entire line of discussion is contingent upon there being a situation in which WHM or BLM are not simply the-same-but-better than CNJ or THM. If that doesn't happen, then INT vs. MND on THM is irrelevant because THM itself is irrelevant.

[Spider-Dan]

We've established that its a nerf and there's ways around it (to a degree) but so what?

How have we established that it's a nerf? Has anyone stated whether CNJ nukes are INT or MND based in (beta3) ARR? If they are INT based, then you could argue that that change to the spells might be a nerf (in that CNJ can no longer boost one stat to dual purposes), but Cleric is far from one.

[Kachiko]

If I'm a CNJ, and soloing, why wouldn't I use it?
If I'm curing a difficult encounter, why would I use it?
Why is an ability a 'nerf' if it's situational?
If an ability doesn't work at every single time, in any given situation, is it a bad game design?
Why hasn't SE clarified what MND and INT do for classes, in general?
How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?
Will the world ever know?

[Charismatic]

Not everything is there to "enhance" your gameplay. You're bitching just to bitch at this point. Nerfs happen in games all the time. The devs saw something. It happened. It may get tweaked again. Who knows.

Okay, so if they changed it just to change it why shouldn't I ask about that and if they changed it yet it doesn't enhance gameplay in any way and it doesn't nerf something overpowered, why shouldn't I complain about it? Because you don't want me to? Lets also not forget that homeboy said the change was good but so far has provided no reason why it is good (which is what prompted this part of the discussion anyway.) Eat a dick with that talk.

This entire line of discussion is contingent upon there being a situation in which WHM or BLM are not simply the-same-but-better than CNJ or THM. If that doesn't happen, then INT vs. MND on THM is irrelevant because THM itself is irrelevant.

Splitting hairs, the two are clearly tied together... but you're right.

If I'm a CNJ, and soloing, why wouldn't I use it?
If I'm curing a difficult encounter, why would I use it?
Why is an ability a 'nerf' if it's situational?
If an ability doesn't work at every single time, in any given situation, is it a bad game design?
Why hasn't SE clarified what MND and INT do for classes, in general?
How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?
Will the world ever know?

Who said anything about bad game design? What are you talking about? Why don't any of your questions matter aside from the clarification of MND and INT for classes (which is in the beta manual, or was... I haven't checked it for phase 3 where they seem to have possibly changed it)

[Stanislaw]

I really dislike the people asking for B2P / F2P etc.

It'd be fine if people understood the consequences. F2P means less content updates, period. Going F2P is a sign that a dev can't support the amount of content additions P2P system demands. If it gets down to that then fine, but to think that people are so against P2P merely on principle is sickening. As if P2P has no merits of it's own. P2P means increased expectations for dev support and if the devs can meet said expectations, everyone is better off.

B2P on the other hand means even less incentive for a dev to keep updating the game aside from making expansions. SE has almost unlimited resources to keep pumping to this game on a bi-monthly basis. Why is the to-be-playerbase so against making use of the massive publisher's will to go to great lengths for their product to be seen as a success?

I have no doubts that when we pay up the sub fee, we get the content we deserve for many years to come.

It's like people are looking at the product we see today and asking "why should I pay the sub fee for what is in front of me?" That's a stupid question to ask, because you pay sub fee for the expectations of what you're getting in the (near) future as a content addition, not what you're getting on the launch day.

What's interesting about this whole P2P/B2P/F2P issue is the fact that Yoshi-P, in an recent JP interview, stated that if he were to make an MMORPG from scratch that is not Final Fantasy it'd be built under an F2P model.

Transcript and Translation:

「ファイナルファンタジー」のMMORPGとしては順調ですが、僕は非常にコアなMMORPGプレイヤーなので、もし「ファイナルファンタジー」ではないMMORPGを作っていたら、もっと別の形になっています（笑）。それこそフリートゥプレイモデルにして、PvPサーバーもある超コアな感じになるような気はします。その線引きはしっかりやっていますので、プレイヤーの皆さんはご安心を（笑）。

As a "Final Fantasy" MMORPG, it's off to a good start. But because I'm a core MMORPG player, if I was making an MMORPG that isn't "Final Fantasy", it'd be a whole lot different. (laughs) In fact, it'd under the Free to Play model and will be quite the Hardcore game, complete with PvP servers. However, I fully understand where the line needs to be drawn, so I ask players to not worry. (laughs)

[Obsidian]

Someone mentioned earlier about ps3 voice chat, Is it confirmed in game or not?

Not happening.

[Churchill]

What's interesting about this whole P2P/B2P/F2P issue is the fact that Yoshi-P, in an recent JP interview, stated that if he were to make an MMORPG from scratch that is not Final Fantasy it'd be built under an F2P model.

Transcript and Translation:

「ファイナルファンタジー」のMMORPGとしては順調ですが、僕は非常にコアなMMORPGプレイヤーなので、もし「ファイナルファンタジー」ではないMMORPGを作っていたら、もっと別の形になっています（笑）。それこそフリートゥプレイモデルにして、PvPサーバーもある超コアな感じになるような気はします。その線引きはしっかりやっていますので、プレイヤーの皆さんはご安心を（笑）。

FF would make more money with a cash shop/opt out system than with subscriptions.

There's really no way around this when some of you people buy copies of a game you already own, spend 30$ on a moogle pen and generally eat up anything FF related.

All they'd have to add is cosmetic items in game that were for town gear and they'd be set.

[Thiefami]

FF would make more money with a cash shop/opt out system than with subscriptions.

There's really no way around this when some of you people buy copies of a game you already own, spend 30$ on a moogle pen and generally eat up anything FF related.

All they'd have to add is cosmetic items in game that were for town gear and they'd be set.

I mean.. why do that when they will pay the sub and buy up the cosmetic items anyway? People spent damn near 100 bucks for a gaudy piece of jewelry and an ingame coat that teleports you to any city once a day.

At the end of the day if they added a cash shop ontop of the sub fee, a good number people would bitch but the same people would buy it while gladly paying their monthly fee.

[Hatedregret]

FF would make more money with a cash shop/opt out system than with subscriptions.

There's really no way around this when some of you people buy copies of a game you already own, spend 30$ on a moogle pen and generally eat up anything FF related.

All they'd have to add is cosmetic items in game that were for town gear and they'd be set.

[Rionel]

On the subject of the MND INT thing for Cleric Stance, a brief history on nukes for clarity sake:

- In 1.0, CNJ nukes were affected by INT primarily.
- In phase 2 I believe, MND was what affected CNJ nukes instead of INT but also affected Cure as well. INT purely was meant to only affect THM nukes in the future.
- Phase 3, it's been reverted back to INT affecting nukes in general.

The way I was seeing it, in phase 2 they were trying out the specialized stat thing for mages (like how DEX affects ARC dmg instead of STR), but I think with the introduction of Arcanist, Scholar and Summoner that it was going to work out if they stuck with that. So they revert back to INT = general nuke damage, MND = general healing potency.

But now CNJ is stuck, because in order to solo things better, they need to increase INT to boost their damage. Not to mention it goes against their natural design of being a healer based class to stack a DD based stat.

But with Cleric Stance's MND INT swap, this is no longer an issue. CNJ can now stack MND for their heals, but are still given the option to nuke properly with Cleric Stance since it turns their MND value into INT which is a big boost to nukes. Also, with the inclusion of these traits:

- Buffer window of about 0.5s to input abilities and still register
- Close to immiediate activation of ability after another one is finished

It really does not seem like a big issue of swapping Cleric Stance back and forth when needed. I mean, it's not like your cures do 0 while you're in this stance. It will still heal a reasonable amount. And if you honestly feel like you need to swap right away, just cure immiediately first, turn off Cleric Stance then proceed to cure with full potency.

Or just don't activate it period if the situation is that dangerous. Dealing damage is obviously not the job's priority after all; it's simply a means for CNJ to reasonably defend itself or if you're in a situation where all hands need to be on deck for DD or face being screwed, haha.

Hell, you can even help out in parties to DD by just tossing a few Aeros on mobs for the DoT. It's even instant now so, I'd imagine it's be encouraged if anything.

I dunno, does that all make any sense? Cleric Stance being changed didn't seem like that bad a thing.

[Alkar]

Okay, so if they changed it just to change it why shouldn't I ask about that and if they changed it yet it doesn't enhance gameplay in any way and it doesn't nerf something overpowered, why shouldn't I complain about it? Because you don't want me to? Lets also not forget that homeboy said the change was good but so far has provided no reason why it is good (which is what prompted this part of the discussion anyway.) Eat a dick with that talk.

I've already told you why I think it's a good change but you're simply ignoring it because you want to complain. I'm not going to repeat myself over and over again.

[mightyg]

On the subject of the MND INT thing for Cleric Stance, a brief history on nukes for clarity sake:

- In 1.0, CNJ nukes were affected by INT primarily.
- In phase 2 I believe, MND was what affected CNJ nukes instead of INT but also affected Cure as well. INT purely was meant to only affect THM nukes in the future.
- Phase 3, it's been reverted back to INT affecting nukes in general.

The way I was seeing it, in phase 2 they were trying out the specialized stat thing for mages (like how DEX affects ARC dmg instead of STR), but I think with the introduction of Arcanist, Scholar and Summoner that it was going to work out if they stuck with that. So they revert back to INT = general nuke damage, MND = general healing potency.

But now CNJ is stuck, because in order to solo things better, they need to increase INT to boost their damage. Not to mention it goes against their natural design of being a healer based class to stack a DD based stat.

But with Cleric Stance's MND INT swap, this is no longer an issue. CNJ can now stack MND for their heals, but are still given the option to nuke properly with Cleric Stance since it turns their MND value into INT which is a big boost to nukes. Also, with the inclusion of these traits:

- Buffer window of about 0.5s to input abilities and still register
- Close to immiediate activation of ability after another one is finished

It really does not seem like a big issue of swapping Cleric Stance back and forth when needed. I mean, it's not like your cures do 0 while you're in this stance. It will still heal a reasonable amount. And if you honestly feel like you need to swap right away, just cure immiediately first, turn off Cleric Stance then proceed to cure with full potency.

Or just don't activate it period if the situation is that dangerous. Dealing damage is obviously not the job's priority after all; it's simply a means for CNJ to reasonably defend itself or if you're in a situation where all hands need to be on deck for DD or face being screwed, haha.

Hell, you can even help out in parties to DD by just tossing a few Aeros on mobs for the DoT. It's even instant now so, I'd imagine it's be encouraged if anything.

I dunno, does that all make any sense? Cleric Stance being changed didn't seem like that bad a thing.

This thank you. This page pretty much understood that having maximum healing power with full power attack magic would be overpowered (PvE, and especially PvP). I guess none of us realized we'd need to spell it out to that extent. To be fair though, FFXI trained us all to throw logic out the fucking window. (Stockholm Syndrome?)