Organization Thread

**Yugl** · 2011-03-28 18:45

Reserved for tests that don't require extensive data. Will flesh it out more when I get the chance.

**Yugl** · 2011-03-30 17:08

In the meanwhile, we're waiting on FM to present a template (or I'll have to come up with one soon; he brought up these ideas for reform), but here are the scheduled for

Readjustments:
1. Distinction between complex and simple test data. The former is characterized by large parses of data or detailed (Account for X and Y factors)/ongoing experimentation. This includes mechanics such as haste and enmity. The latter is stuff that you don't expect to conduct a large test sample for and/or it's just testing for something such as how much hidden attack a piece of gear gives. Equipment is the exception to this rule. Hopefully, this will reduce clutter and give space between things people understand to be trivial and larger tests. It will also serve a better function than the random facts thread.

2. Distinction between class (DRG/BLU/RDM/So forth) and general mechanics. For class, we will divide the sections by Traits, Abilities, Magic, Merits, AF, Relic, AF3+1/2, and other specific like pets for pet classes. If some aspect overlaps classes (Dual Wield for example), we'll just put the data with all the classes that naturally obtain dual wield. General mechanics are stuff that can generalize over all or the vast majority of classes. For example, delay reduction cap does not only apply to particular classes and neither does enmity (Even though specific actions of classes produce different levels of enmity).

Where we need more work on existing forums:
1. Testing instruments thread. It's probably the most underdeveloped thread of all the ones here. If you have anything that can contribute to the thread, feel free to edit my original post. If you're uncertain whether some information applies, make a post about it in the thread rather than PMing me. That way, we'll gradually get the sense of what does and does not belong instead of worrying about whether I think it applies or not.

2. If a link points to a non-BG source, repost the information here (with credit to the author) and link to the post here. This is primarily a security reason so as to avoid sites that become hit by viruses (EX: Linking to KI) or sites that might go down in the future.

Masamune · 2011-04-03 10:29

tried to move that test here but failed, so ill just copy paste it :

Originally Posted by Rena

(Short version: trait at 90 is 50% fast cast, empyrean legs add 10%)

Base recast of of status curing spells is either 5, 10 or 15 seconds.

At 85, naked, no buffs, etc., 15s recast spells (erase) go to 12 seconds, 10s recast (cursna, blindna) becomes 8, 5s recast (all other ones) becomes 4.

With empyrean legs (+1 and +2 both give +1 to divine benison), recast decreases by 1 second for all (11/7/3 seconds)

At 90, recast decreases naked by same amount as if adding empyrean legs, and equipping these further reduces recast only of erase by 1s. (10/7/3 seconds)

Assuming this works like fast cast (recast reduction being half that of cast time reduction), that means that at 85, WHM gets 40% fast cast from traits alone, and at 90, this increases to 50%. Adding empyrean legs provides another 10%, which breaks the supposed 50% cap on fast cast I've seen mentioned. Light arts, as well as fast cast traits from /RDM both further decrease recast time. It might be that cast time is still capped at 50%, and only recast time can still be reduced further with more fast cast, but it's impossible for me to say anything about cast times from merely observing.

Do have some data on the enmity reduction, but would like to retest it... if anybody wants to do so before I get around to it, PM for some of the details I already have.

**Yugl** · 2011-04-03 17:04

I think we should work on a temporary template in case Sonocat/Ragns cannot get Table-of-contents tag started on these forums. For starters, we'll probably put 2-4 Classes per thread to avoid cluster. I'm a fan of 2/thread (even if it means 10 threads) because it means less clustering and easier navigation (assuming we do not get ToC). In order to further remedy that, we'll do this gamefaq style and have [#] tags + Titles at the top as a pseudo-ToC. In addition, we'll have sections in spoilers to avoid additional clustering. Finally, we'll add "To Top of post" links next to each for easier navigation. My question to you all is how to handle the Class-specific/generic + Simple/complex distinction. We could do something like DRG/MNK/WAR-Complex and DRG/MNK/WAR-Simple, but that easily becomes 20 Threads. We could also just reserve the simple/complex distinction for general concepts. Also, I'm probably going to give each class it's own post and just title the post. Please respond here (PM for those who cannot post). Remember that this is not necessarily a GUIDE, but a data center, which means we want to provide the easiest means of updating possible.

Masamune, is that testing Empyrean legs for WHM? Just making sure.

EDIT from Masamune: Ooops i think i forgot to move also the post's title, if i remember correctly this test is for Divine Benison from Orison Pantaloons+1/+2.

Masamune · 2011-04-04 10:43

Adding 2 formulas i tested last year (lost numbers sorry...) :

WarCry% = FLOOR[ (Level-1)*25% +5] / 256 , where Level = MainJobWARLevel or SubJobSAMLevel if >=35, else -19.

Hasso(STR portion) = FLOOR(Level/7) , where Level = MainJobSAMLevel or SubJobSAMLevel if >=25, else 0.

EDIT: just tested warcry @ 90, formula don't work anymore, should yield less... dunno for hasso. Formulas still works all the way till lvl75 included tough.

EDIT2: just tested Berserk+warcry stacking, tests :
war90 base attack=408 -> warcry=444 -> Berserk=546
/war45 base=425 -> 451 -> 557
/war45 base=470 > 499 > 616
main75/war37 base=305 -> 321 -> 397

found the "bug" : warcry formula has its level parameter capped @ lvl75 lol... SE you fail !
this test shows also regarding calculation order with berserk stacking warcry:
# [BaseAttack*(1+warcry%)]*1.25 don't match
# BaseAttack*(1+warcry%+25%) MATCH!

**Yugl** · 2011-04-06 02:01

Abilities

Spoiler: show

Traits

Merits

Pet

Artifact

Relic

Empyrean

I'm thinking of removing Magic from the list because it can stand on it's own while remaining organized (by type such as blue magic). It also helps for overlapping magic. What do you guys think? Would I be warranted in doing that for magic and not traits? Comments on this please.

**Radec** · 2011-04-06 03:10

Magic is a large enough category it's worth splitting, while traits also overlap, I can't see having <all nukes from stone to thunder III> information on BLM SCH RDM DRK pages, compared to say, Fencer I on WAR BST BRD.

**Yugl** · 2011-04-07 13:27

Starting on one of them (Holding here for later)
Abilities

Spoiler: show

Traits

Spoiler: show

Merits

Spoiler: show

Pet

Spoiler: show

Artifact (Drachen)

Spoiler: show

Relic Armor, Weapon, and Mythic (Wyrm)

Spoiler: show

Empyrean (Lancer)

Spoiler: show

**Yugl** · 2011-04-21 20:15

Can some people assist in making posts for each class (Like the DRG Example above). You don't have to do all the coloring/bolding/spoiler; I'll handing that. I just need each of those for every class (Hold off on BST+SMN+PUP for now until I figure out how to handle pets). For AF, just type the specific name next to the armor (Like Artifact (Drachen)). This will make it easier since SE reused a lot of Artifact gear names for Relic gear names. Basically, if you submit something like

Traits
Attack Bonus
Defense Bonus
Double Attack
... and so forth, it'll be fine.

If you're not able to post in this section and want to do it, PM me so we don't have multiple people working on the same class. I'll obviously give you credit.

Edit: Remember NOT to add a magic section. We have that separately.

**Yugl** · 2011-05-03 13:23

Posting this here (From PMs), so I can get responses on the matter from all posters:

2. Why did we begin to create a bunch of new threads? This is really just a bad attempt to amalgamate multiple sentiments on the issue. On one hand, some wanted a wikistyle format so that we would be presenting the information on BG itself. Hence, we would replace wiki with forum posts. On the other hand, some did not like this suggestion and said to just go with wiki. I tried to amalgamate these ideas by having the wiki format, but only for finding data rather than compiling it. Hence, what you find under Magic > Dark Magic is not the information itself, but links to the information so that wiki editors can find the information more easily. I would like comments on this move and whether you think it was good or bad, so please include this in your response! I'll also be posting it in the organization thread since I really would like this to work out and come up with a cohesive structure that we're all comfortable using. Keep in mind that I prize easiness (laziness) and organization when it comes to format. By laziness/easiness, I am pointing out that people conducting tests usually just want to post their idea and receive feedback, but that goes in opposition of organization generally. Thus, we need other parameters (Such as compilation posts I mentioned earlier) for maintaining organization without burdening testers.

With this in mind, the questions are as follows (And ANYONE can respond to this; if you don't have access, PM me):
1. Alphabetization (The original thread for data compilation), WikiStyle (Multiple topics such as the Atma/Magic/Cast Speed thread), or some other format?
2. Publish the information (Neatly format and stuff) or Just links to the data?
3. What are your ideas for maintaining organization without burdening the tester?
4. Other comments?

If you do not care/do not have an opinion, still post so I know everyone is accounted for

**Yugl** · 2011-05-03 16:29

Originally Posted by Mojo

1. Why not just use wiki? I don't really think anybody is truly interested in redundantly posting old information in an different format.
2. I think just simply posting links to data in a very loosely organized manner (such as the data compilation thread) is the most feasible approach and honestly the only one that will ever get done.
3. Encourage viewers to post data into wiki and improve the wiki quality if they want to help out but don't understand or feel like testing stuff themselves.
4. I'd also be interested to hear about what others thought, as in the other mathy parts posters. I don't mind if you simply want to forward my PMs to other people if they are curious on what I think. That's actually the kind of communication and discussion I was expecting to be done on the super special forum (as opposed to using it as a place to gather information.)

Keep em coming~

**Byrthnoth** · 2011-05-03 17:14

I have the same concerns that I expressed before the section was formed, which seem to be pretty much the same as Mojo's. I think it's helpful to have a testing thread that we can moderate and split things out of (like the skillchain damage), but it will be much more relevant to the FFXI community if we just update the wiki pages.

**Stromgarde** · 2011-05-04 15:39

I agree with most of Mojo's sentiments. While we have been making good progress on research, the fact is little of what we find will reach the rest of the game's population as a whole unless it gets forwarded to the wiki.

**Yugl** · 2011-05-04 15:53

I'll make a decision on this by Friday, but so far I am leaning to revamping the format in the following way:

- Scrap the class specific idea
- Create categories for magic/JA/Traits/Atma/Abyssite/Weapon skill/Mob Data/Testing Instruments (How I create experiment?!)/Random Facts Thread
- In each of the thread, Alphabet category with [Name (Subject): Link]

The reason I want to do maintain sections rather than a single data compilation thread is because a single thread *Will* become bloated. Thoughts?

Edit: Quick example

Thread: Magic

Alphabetized

*Lets see... I want to find old data concerning Haste* => *Skip to "H"* => Find links to post => Click Link => I'll find a page WITHIN the thread OR an external thread

**Cymmina** · 2011-05-04 17:41

Originally Posted by Yugl

Posting this here (From PMs), so I can get responses on the matter from all posters:

2. Why did we begin to create a bunch of new threads? This is really just a bad attempt to amalgamate multiple sentiments on the issue. On one hand, some wanted a wikistyle format so that we would be presenting the information on BG itself. Hence, we would replace wiki with forum posts. On the other hand, some did not like this suggestion and said to just go with wiki. I tried to amalgamate these ideas by having the wiki format, but only for finding data rather than compiling it. Hence, what you find under Magic > Dark Magic is not the information itself, but links to the information so that wiki editors can find the information more easily. I would like comments on this move and whether you think it was good or bad, so please include this in your response! I'll also be posting it in the organization thread since I really would like this to work out and come up with a cohesive structure that we're all comfortable using. Keep in mind that I prize easiness (laziness) and organization when it comes to format. By laziness/easiness, I am pointing out that people conducting tests usually just want to post their idea and receive feedback, but that goes in opposition of organization generally. Thus, we need other parameters (Such as compilation posts I mentioned earlier) for maintaining organization without burdening testers.

Wikis are better suited for compiling information, but the general design of wikis is pretty terrible and almost always requires separate registration from other things like forums. Also the BG forum search eats dicks: I can only find things I'm looking for if I use Google's site search.

What you need is something that's a hybrid between a wiki and a forum that allows for easy discussion (discussion pages are horrible for this) and keeps things lumped together so that people who are good at organization can do the formatting/organizing.

**Radec** · 2011-05-04 19:12

- Scrap the class specific idea
- Create categories for magic/JA/Traits/Atma/Abyssite/Weapon skill/Mob Data/Testing Instruments (How I create experiment?!)/Random Facts Thread
- In each of the thread, Alphabet category with [Name (Subject): Link]

As said, wiki is great for compilation, can't compare with that on forum posts - of those categories the only one I'd keep would be "Testing Instruments (How I create experiment?!)", maybe "Random Facts Thread". Everything else just need to update the wiki page with info and then link back to the post with the test.

With this in mind, the questions are as follows (And ANYONE can respond to this; if you don't have access, PM me):
1. Alphabetization (The original thread for data compilation), WikiStyle (Multiple topics such as the Atma/Magic/Cast Speed thread), or some other format?
2. Publish the information (Neatly format and stuff) or Just links to the data?
3. What are your ideas for maintaining organization without burdening the tester?
4. Other comments?

1. 1 topic, 1 post. All our Order of Operations for Magic? Once done, split to "Order of Operations for Magic", or "Calculating Magic Damage"
2. Publish final results to wiki, link to here for the test cases/proof(see 4)
3. Got me here. I enjoy the testing but can't be bothered to deal with wiki-formatting a lot of the time.
4. I saw this forum somewhat the opposite of Mojo - discussion can leave open to general forums, this was to be for hard, proven(or, proof of) material with solid testing procedure, not eyeballed "set bonus is 4-5%" posts. Skip any contention ("Well, my XXX is better dps than your YYY") unless there was facts, again with solid testing procedure, to back it up.

Masamune · 2011-05-06 08:16

Originally Posted by Cymmina

What you need is something that's a hybrid between a wiki and a forum that allows for easy discussion (discussion pages are horrible for this) and keeps things lumped together so that people who are good at organization can do the formatting/organizing.

This and ...

Originally Posted by Radec

1. 1 topic, 1 post. All our Order of Operations for Magic? Once done, split to "Order of Operations for Magic", or "Calculating Magic Damage"
2. Publish final results to wiki, link to here for the test cases/proof(see 4)
3. Got me here. I enjoy the testing but can't be bothered to deal with wiki-formatting a lot of the time.
4. I saw this forum somewhat the opposite of Mojo - discussion can leave open to general forums, this was to be for hard, proven(or, proof of) material with solid testing procedure, not eyeballed "set bonus is 4-5%" posts. Skip any contention ("Well, my XXX is better dps than your YYY") unless there was facts, again with solid testing procedure, to back it up.

..are basically my thoughts since before the creation of these Mathy Parts.

In other words, if wikis had a much more flexible "Discussion page" to post solid data etc... like Radec said, those Mathy Parts wouldnot exist. That explains why testers tends to post their findings on a forum instead of a wiki's Discussion page corresponding to the tested feature.
In terms of data organisation, in a large scale, i would say best for now would be to keep current threads for posting tests and datas (and links in the thread's 1st post), but most importantly in my humble opinion, would be to engage a discussion with a wiki webmaster on this topic.
Also, those "discussion pages" on wikis have same problem as Mathy Parts' threads: need moderators to "merge" posts testing same feature, in one + link @ thread's 1st post (or main page in wiki case). Same prob with Wiki's policies and "validating" if a test is "acceptable" or just full bullshit eyeballed and should be deleted, eating space.

Just my 2cents.

**Yugl** · 2011-05-07 05:42

It really seems like it boils down to how much work Wiki wants to put into being correct. Assuming Wiki is willing to cite information properly (Linking posts rather than threads)...
* Randomest Facts Thread
* On-Going threads (Like Monster Data Thread)
* Large Data threads
*** WS and SC
*** Magic
*** JA
*** EQUIP
*** JT
Data Compilation Thread

How this works:
- Randomest Fact thread functions like a publishing thread. Post (Or link) reviewed data for BG-Wiki/Wiki-Wiki to format and fix. It also works for small data that doesn't warrant its own thread, but doesn't necessarily fit into the other threads (Like atma testing).
- Ongoing threads are those that we intended will take a while to (or never) complete. Finding out all the monster data or even PHs are examples of this.
- Large Data threads serve two purposes 1) Inspire tests since I notice most of these tests have started by looking at oddities in the game 2) Pre-Randomest Fact testing; this way they filter randomest facts of the comments, so editors can see compiled data
*** If something from this thread becomes an ongoing thread or has a lot of related posts, just quote the temporal findings and make a new thread like with SC except you quote the posts
- The necessity of Data compilation thread depends entirely on the Wiki community. If they're lazy, it becomes more pertinent for old and new data.

In all of this, we get the conversation, easiness of finding items to fix on the wikis (removal of clutter) , separation for ongoing threads, and much of the "What needs to be tested" thread. Noticeably missing is a genuine way of finding data on a subject you want since the randomest fact thread won't hold everything and isn't alphabetized (It is time ordered though, so it is easy for editors to "pick up where they left off." If they're diligent, we won't need a data compilation thread since it will be on the Wikis, but that won't apply to old data and it falters if Wiki becomes lazier.

**Byrthnoth** · 2011-05-07 07:35

It just got more difficult now, too, because other-wiki has split itself again. Apparently the people running it cloned it and included it in a different gaming network outside wikia.

This will either lead to a burst of activity as the people running it start updating to give it an edge over the wikia version, or it'll split the playerbase's updaters. I'm betting on the second.

**Yugl** · 2011-05-07 15:07

So there is a second site? Link?

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