GE pays no taxes, receives tax bonuses, ships jobs overseas, and its CEO is into job creation

[guartz]

Aurik is saying what money is, but in practice money is treated as personal property. Albeit property that changes hands very fast.

bah, money is first a medium of exchange, which inherently implies ownership. He's trying to imply is that fiat currency IS definition of money, but even still, ownership is still there, intangible ownership, but it's still there. He just doesn't want to admit he's wrong, which he is 100%. Look at the language he's using, "you can't own promises" fucking lol.

[aurik]

No interest in trying to educate you, enjoy your ignorance.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Once again, 16th amendment doesn't provide for the power to levy income taxes on individuals. The power to levy income tax is still art.1 sec. 8 clause 1 of the original constitution.

The 16th amendment just frees the restriction that revenue from taxes on income must be apportioned.

My posts about the true nature of money are still 100% accurate, by the way. It's a pretty hefty subject to grapple with though, so I'm not surprised that you and Swampy have trouble with it.

I get it aurik, you just can't see the distinction.

Under your theory, the IRS could bang on your dour and say, "give me all your money, its ours."

Under my theory, the IRS can only do what tax laws permit.

[archibaldcrane]

Ehh. If I walk someone's dog, and he gives me a case of beer, I own that case of beer.

If he gives me a $20 bill, I own that bill.

What gives that bill value is more intangible than what gives the case of beer value, but it is still owned.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

[bigrougabagel]

Who's dog are you walking for $20? I'm interested.

[guartz]

Ehh. If I walk someone's dog, and he gives me a case of beer, I own that case of beer.

If he gives me a $20 bill, I own that bill.

No archi, that 20 dollar bill is a promise for future goods and services. And you can't own promises.

[aurik]

Ehh. If I walk someone's dog, and he gives me a case of beer, I own that case of beer.

If he gives me a $20 bill, I own that bill.

What gives that bill value is more intangible than what gives the case of beer value, but it is still owned.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

Sorry, Archi, the government still owns that bill. You can do what you like with the beer, but if you destroy or deface the bill you're technically doing something illegal. It's the same logic that holds for draft cards.

Money is the convenient fiction of value backed by the government. Other types of trade fodder are known colloquially as "goods".

[Correction]

What the fuck is thread even about anymore, jesus christ.

[guartz]

And no distinction is made between owning something and having a regulation against doing something.

Archi, if you sell that beer to a minor you are technically doing something illegal, therefore, government owns your beer.

[aurik]

What the fuck is thread even about anymore, jesus christ.

It's about Swampdonkey putting up smokescreen after smokescreen so that he doesn't have to come to terms with the fact that waiving your right to collect $1000 is functionally the same as spending $1000 on the person you had the right to collect it from.

[archibaldcrane]

Sorry, Archi, the government still owns that bill. You can do what you like with the beer, but if you destroy or deface the bill you're technically doing something illegal. It's the same logic that holds for draft cards.

Money is the convenient fiction of value backed by the government. Other types of trade fodder are known colloquially as "goods".

If someone steals it from me, they're committing a crime against me, not the government. The government decides it has value, but every court in the land would rule that it is legally my property.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

[aurik]

And no distinction is made between owning something and having a regulation against doing something.

Archi, if you sell that beer to a minor you are technically doing something illegal, therefore, government owns your beer.

This analogy fits like a glove on an octopus.

[guartz]

Im pissed about the government owning my fucking beer is what this thread is about.

[archibaldcrane]

It's about Swampdonkey putting up smokescreen after smokescreen so that he doesn't have to come to terms with the fact that waiving your right to collect $1000 is functionally the same as spending $1000 on the person you had the right to collect it from.

These two things are functionally the same regardless as to who "technically" owns money. You're trying to make him wrong by entertaining his idiotic "so you're saying I don't own my money" point. Stop it.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

[*Shinzon*]

I'd say that on any level you don't actually own any of the bills that represent your "money". I think it would be more accurate to say that you don't actually own the bills but you own the value of service it represents, the collective results of your labor or goods. Your "money" is really nothing more than a means of barter that can be exchanged for or in virtually any form thanks to support by the government that owns that money to more easily facilitate exchanging goods and services.

Money is completely abstract and I think it's incorrect to apply actual physical ownership to something that realistically is worthless. I think that's actually a good point to examine when you consider how American Currency is actually viewed by the rest of the world. At this point anyway.

It's splitting hairs but neither is completely correct or incorrect.

[aurik]

You don't even own the value of service it represents, because that is a concept, not an object. You have the right to determine how that value is exchanged back into the form of immediate goods and services, and by taking your $20, a thief is depriving you of that right. Mental gymnastics, but ultimately correct.

Or, for laymen, you dun got robbed.

[archibaldcrane]

by taking your $20

as long as we agree its mine, I'm good.














also, stop it



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

[guartz]

You don't even own the value of service it represents, because that is a concept, not an object. You have the right to determine how that value is exchanged back into the form of immediate goods and services, and by taking your $20, a thief is depriving you of that right. Mental gymnastics, but ultimately correct.

Or, for laymen, you dun got robbed.

An apple is a concept of properties. It's red, delicious and round. It's there for consumption or future exchange of other concepts. You can't actually own those concepts.

[Plow]

Ok, there's 2 ways you can put this that even swamp's mental gymnastics can't really transform...

First:

The government is not a person. In a democracy, it's not an entity that can be separated from citizens. We decide as a country what we do with all of our money. One of the things we can do is decide to spend it on improving the upper class, and hoping to reap the benefits all around. This is accomplished by tax breaks and bonuses for said upper class.

Of course, the underlying concept of what democracy really is is way too communist for right wingers to ever allow themselves to realize, so...


If we give you your claim-- that tax breaks are not spending because it's not "the government's money" in the first place... Bush still fucks you over.

See, you can make a semi-valid claim on that point when there's a surplus, because at that point, you're literally just giving them their money back, or letting them keep more of it in the first place.

The thing is... we have a massive deficit.

This means tax breaks for the rich come via borrowed money, required to cover the lost revenue.


Which means we're not only literally spending that money, we're borrowing it *TO* spend, and paying interest on it.


But, of course, it's about the most retarded investment possible and we've been staring at that reality for 30 years now, and unfortunately about half the people are completely oblivious to what they're looking at.

[friedfunk]

That's ok we can just create more money to pay off those debts.