Sony Offline Entertainment (Hacking of PSN and SOE)

[Pikarya]

I'm almost starting to feel sorry for Sony at this point. You know deep down in their corporation that the line is separated on this current issue with employees/etc.

[archibaldcrane]

What Geohotz and others essentially did was gain access, illegally, to the very keys that govern how the ps3's system is protected against pirating in order to enable them to reestablish linux support on models that the function was not dropped from which is what hotz will claim was his motive. Herein lies the problems:

Because Geohotz claimed responsibility, and has since been proven to have, gained access to these codes he is therefore responsible for any pirating that results from his discovery. Several other websites have since sold and made profits from selling unauthorized peripherals, USB drives that used the codes Geohotz discovered to play homebrew and pirated games, not to use linux.

At 1st bold: I assume he did some sort of reverse engineering to find out a specific, particular thing about the software/firmware he was sold, yes? Whether this is illegal or not is up to much debate - although if he's distributing actual Sony code he should be prosecuted. (Not exactly sure what the "codes" mean in this circumstance.)

And the 2nd bold is (possibly legally true) but fucking bullshit.

[*Shinzon*]

Shinzon, I see your point, and understand what you're saying. Legality isn't the issue I have with them. There are so many laws on the books that are simply retarded as shit, that legality is the least of my concerns.

What pisses me off, is this guy is going to get nailed to the cross for adding a feature to the system that Sony didn't, and Sony is pissy about it because they aren't making money off it. How much money could Geo have made, a few grand? Maybe? Sony is worth 137.6 billion dollars. I just don't see how it could be about the money. It's about control, yes of intellectual property, but the shit gets taken entirely too far.

Fine, make him stop selling the mods, maybe even make him pay back however many lolthousands of dollars he made to Sony out of principle. If he goes to jail over this because of some bullshit FBI Anti-Piracy laws, something is wrong with the system. FBI has better shit to do than worry about people making technology better and more functional than the company that designed it. If anything, Sony should be fucking embarrassed for not adding this kind of functionality in the first place. They should hire this guy, not persecute him.

By the way, if no one remembers, the whole iTunes shit didn't stop people from piracy, neither will this. As long as there is media and technology, there will be pirates. It takes months, sometimes years for these companies to develop protection mechanisms to stop piracy, and it takes a tenth of the time for an MIT undergrad to reverse engineer it and post to Demonoid or Pirate Bay. If Sony really thinks incarcerating this guy is going to 'send a message', they're pretty fucking naive imo.

Yeah, like I mentioned before, I'm not necessarily in favor of this point of view normally and I agree in fighting for something you truly believe in. I completely disagree with what the music industry was done in an attempt to curb piracy of music. However, what Geohotz has done is not the same as what was done in the other cases, simply because IP law isn't that simple. Geohotz has basically given and was selling ( according to sony) the sources keys to the very way sony algorithms operate and how they curb piracy, which is SONY property and not yours when you buy their product. These keys could be used, yes in very extreme cases, by other companies, competitors to curb sony profits and basically become a case of corporate espionage. The Ps3 because of the firmware updates was un-hackable and protected from piracy until these codes were released, signalling that they had the BEST security protocols, which are also governed by IP, that could be stolen by competitors.

People are against the way Sony is handling the case based on principle that they think it resembles what the music industry has done, and it does not. It is much more completely because the technology is so advanced the keys so vital to the way the PS3 operates.

Edit: To address archi rather than double post:

At 1st bold: I assume he did some sort of reverse engineering to find out a specific, particular thing about the software/firmware he was sold, yes? Whether this is illegal or not is up to much debate - although if he's distributing actual Sony code he should be prosecuted. (Not exactly sure what the "codes" mean in this circumstance.)

And the 2nd bold is (possibly legally true) but fucking bullshit.

To address the first, the "source codes" that Geohotz discovered through hacking the PS3 and bypassing security protocols are the algorithms and the very digital keys to Sony's PS3 kingdom. Once this code was released, keep in mind this code goes into EVERY ps3 that sony builds, any ps3 anywhere could be modified using this code. A consumer is not entitled to that technology. Geohotz in spite of sony trying to stop him, either sold or covertly spread the code to other people who used the code to profit creating peripherals that allowed pirating games to be played. So yes, what he is distributing or was anyway, is the very digital coding that determines how the ps3 operates. Keep in mind also, that it is not just sony's security measures, but it is that actual programming that sony used to create the technology.

To address the second, had he stuck to his guns and kept the codes secret and released a way to unlock linux without actually releasing the codes themselves, he wouldn't be liable. But because he did it, and mocked Sony for trying to stop him, he looks guilty and anyone who hears Sony's lawyers explain it that way is going to agree. I wish I had saved the G4 interview and the article on Kotaku and Joystiq about the case, but if you have the time to search you should look it up. It's not as simple as what the music industry is trying to do about getting it's money. This is actually capable of preventing sony from developing new technology based on the ps3 because of what Geohotz did.

[Raytheon]

I'm almost starting to feel sorry for Sony at this point. You know deep down in their corporation that the line is separated on this current issue with employees/etc.

I actually didn't know that, but I could totally see it. Things like copyright infringement, all it does is roadblock innovation and progress. Yes, it protects people/businesses/corporations to an extent, but seriously, as long as someone doesn't approach 1% of the gross profits said company pulls in, it shouldn't even be prosecutable. Like not getting busted for attempting to distribute weed as long as you don't have more than an ounce (AZ).

The funny thing is, Sony probably has corporate spies stealing tech from all the other major corporations.

[jmc]

Do not care for the sony vs geohot case at all anymore. I'm a firm believer that geohot should not be charged with anything, sony should go after the individuals who created the software to actually run the pirated software.

All I want, is for this DDoS shit to be done with by the time Socom comes out this month.

[*Shinzon*]

Do not care for the sony vs geohot case at all anymore. I'm a firm believer that geohot should not be charged with anything, sony should go after the individuals who created the software to actually run the pirated software.

All I want, is for this DDoS shit to be done with by the time Socom comes out this month.

Again it's not a software or program, it's an alteration of system code using Sony's security code keys discovered by hotz. But I completely agree. I'm tired of getting kicked of the fucking PSN, twice in two hours playing CoD. Im going to the gym this is BS.

[Hiryo]

+1 For the stopping this DDoS Attack BS because I want to play games. I'm over here watching Dr. Phil talk about financial troubles, I want to play some Black Ops GDI (mvc3 actually. black ops just sounded funnier).

Somewhat related, as far as music piracy goes, I wonder if that is comparable to games nowadays. In the dreamcast era, it is no comparison, and devellopers would stop producing if their profit margin was so little. Now we have 3-6 platforms, all pirateable. I wonder how the profit margin sizes up now.

[Raytheon]

Yeah, like I mentioned before, I'm not necessarily in favor of this point of view normally and I agree in fighting for something you truly believe in. I completely disagree with what the music industry was done in an attempt to curb piracy of music. However, what Geohotz has done is not the same as what was done in the other cases, simply because IP law isn't that simple. Geohotz has basically given and was selling ( according to sony) the sources keys to the very way sony algorithms operate and how they curb piracy, which is SONY property and not yours when you buy their product. These keys could be used, yes in very extreme cases, by other companies, competitors to curb sony profits and basically become a case of corporate espionage. The Ps3 because of the firmware updates was un-hackable and protected from piracy until these codes were released, signalling that they had the BEST security protocols, which are also governed by IP, that could be stolen by competitors.

People are against the way Sony is handling the case based on principle that they think it resembles what the music industry has done, and it does not. It is much more completely because the technology is so advanced the keys so vital to the way the PS3 operates.

I can agree with you on that. If he was truly distributing the hash algorithms that Sony had created, if competitors got a hold of it, they may be boned. But Sony, as a company, should be prepared for things like this to happen. I do Network Security and Information Assurance as a contractor for the Army, hold a Sec+ and CISSP, (Certified Information Systems Security Professional) and I can tell you, if someone outside the company can crack your algorithms, you're doing it wrong. I'm not sure if DRM hash algorithms are the same as cryptographic hash functions, but I'd assume they are. Using a one-way hash algorithm like MD5 or GOST should have prevented this.

An easy way for Sony to fix this: Create a checksum that verifies the OS is compliant with what Sony pushes for version updates, much like you would push Group Policy Objects from a server to workstations. If the OS doesn't match, it pushes a fresh image from the server to the box, in this case a PS3. If the PS3 does not have the image that matches the server, it's placed in a quarantine group and cannot connect to PSN until it's firmware is updated.

Honestly though, it'll be fucking nice when there's only 1 system, the Playtendobox 720. I'm sick of buying 2-3 consoles every time the next revolution in gaming comes along. No more console exclusives, no more proprietorship. Have the big 3 merge and come up with a glorious new piece of hardware that does it all, and let all the developers finally spend more time making games better instead of making them work across 3 different platforms and porting to PC. If this day ever came to pass, it shall be glorious.

Damn, derailed my own thread. Fuck yea.

[*Shinzon*]

I can agree with you on that. If he was truly distributing the hash algorithms that Sony had created, if competitors got a hold of it, they may be boned. But Sony, as a company, should be prepared for things like this to happen. I do Network Security and Information Assurance as a contractor for the Army, hold a Sec+ and CISSP, (Certified Information Systems Security Professional) and I can tell you, if someone outside the company can crack your algorithms, you're doing it wrong. I'm not sure if DRM hash algorithms are the same as cryptographic hash functions, but I'd assume they are. Using a one-way hash algorithm like MD5 or GOST should have prevented this.

An easy way for Sony to fix this: Create a checksum that verifies the OS is compliant with what Sony pushes for version updates, much like you would push Group Policy Objects from a server to workstations. If the OS doesn't match, it pushes a fresh image from the server to the box, in this case a PS3. If the PS3 does not have the image that matches the server, it's placed in a quarantine group and cannot connect to PSN until it's firmware is updated.

Honestly though, it'll be fucking nice when there's only 1 system, the Playtendobox 720. I'm sick of buying 2-3 consoles every time the next revolution in gaming comes along. No more console exclusives, no more proprietorship. Have the big 3 merge and come up with a glorious new piece of hardware that does it all, and let all the developers finally spend more time making games better instead of making them work across 3 different platforms and porting to PC. If this day ever came to pass, it shall be glorious.

Damn, derailed my own thread. Fuck yea.

Couldn't agree more with that last part TBH, but competition makes things better so, I guess we'll be shelling out money forever :X

[Lucavi]

Basically it's a bunch of butthurt kids that expect to accomplish something out of this.

...They're actually pretty good at getting their way, but okay.

[Raytheon]

...They're actually pretty good at getting their way, but okay.

Most of the ones that actually perform the hacking aren't kids. There's some script kiddies in there yeah, but they're not the ones actually bypassing firewalls, creating DDoS attacks, etc. The script kiddies are given scripts that may contain virus', worms, logic bombs, you name it, by the guys actually creating the shit. The script kiddies think they're hackers, but all they're doing is testing this guy's malicious software and taking all the risk. More than likely, their computers are bots and the real hackers use them as layers of protection against ARIN lookups.

[miokomioko]

Terms of Use Agreements.

READ THEM

[Raytheon]

Couldn't agree more with that last part TBH, but competition makes things better so, I guess we'll be shelling out money forever :X

You are absolutely correct on that, without competition, we'd probably have really shitty games. I guess it's part of the give and take relationship ><

BTW, my PSN ID: LunchboxMcNasty LOL! Same for my XBOX Live. You'll probably never see me on PSN though. Any online game, I buy for XBOX live. The support is much better and all my friends get the shit on XBOX, so I get it to play with them.

Exclusives and offline games I buy for the PS3 for the slight increase in graphics, plus I like holding PS controllers <3

[Ganondorf]

As much as I agree the kid didn't do anything wrong by breaking his own system, the people that support him are a bunch of whiney self-righteous pussies. Fucking hippies.

[Raytheon]

As much as I agree the kid didn't do anything wrong by breaking his own system, the people that support him are a bunch of whiney self-righteous pussies. Fucking hippies.

How?

[archibaldcrane]

Terms of Use Agreements.

FUCK THEM

or that

[izembo]

he should be charged because of the reverse engineering and leaking the keys. thats all. the individuals who pirate and release the pirating programs should be charged for that.

[Kuya]

I think i'm convinced by Archi's argument the most. The whole notion of having these limitations imposed on what you can do with the things you buy, puts into question whether you really own them at all. Even if there is a previous agreement over this, it does not mean we really have to agree with it.

[miokomioko]

Anonymous is getting really annoying with their false assumption of this perfect world needing "freedom of information" shit just because it only means free games for nerds them. I like how protecting your intellectual property from being reverse-engineered and shared globally and damaging your potential game sales = "corporate greed." You can tell this was written by greedy kids who really have no grasp on the real world.

I'm all for exposing corruption and illegal practices, but this is getting a little too loose-cannon for me. Anonymous is losing their impact when they get this stupid.

We are forced to agree that we won't do things with their product that will hurt their business if we want to use their product. We own the product, but doing these things they don't want us to do after we agree not to is just giving them a window for suing your ass for doing so. You can do whatever the hell you want with their product, if you're willing to face the consequences.

It's a this-day-in-age thing. If mass spectrometers became common household items, you would probably have to agree not to use them on big corporate products (coca-cola) and share the chemical makeup with the world so they could make their own. Obviously we are not to that point, but with devices, games, etc. that's the situation these businesses have found them in and there is they can do about it besides what they are doing to Geohot, who wholly deserves it.

[Aristio]

I don't have any opinion about this, but I always love hearing news of anonymous. They always make me laugh at how far they go with things.