A Song of Ice and Fire (Book discussion)

[aduidarnenye]

Well, I suppose you have a point. I guess I just saw the Night's Watch as an organisation that put competency before birth. But then you have to consider what Donal Noye said to Jon, about him having all the luxuries of a master-at-arms and a maester to teach him.

I guess it comes down to a personal bias. I found most of Jon's POVs (up til when he was with Halfhand) to be dull and full of his whining.

[Amiricle]

Well, I suppose you have a point. I guess I just saw the Night's Watch as an organisation that put competency before birth. But then you have to consider what Donal Noye said to Jon, about him having all the luxuries of a master-at-arms and a maester to teach him.

I guess it comes down to a personal bias. I found most of Jon's POVs (up til when he was with Halfhand) to be dull and full of his whining.

It seemed to me that while the watch would put competency before birth, the Starks would be the exception to this rule. The history of the Nights Watch and the Stark family intertwine very often and it is implied that nearly every Stark to haved joined the watch has done thier duty very well. Those in command that knew the Stark line well, most certainly did have a favourable bias towards Jon when he joined.
That bias helped but did not get him command, however, since those guys were all dead by then.

[EternityEnd]

Considering Dany has had two assassination attempts on her in quick succession (though one was from the warlocks), I don't think she's wrong to be wary. The house with the red door was basically an allegory for her childhood innocence. She lost what remained of that when the person who butchered her entire family finally started trying to kill her as well. That said, she never constantly mentions hired knives, like Viserys. I don't remember her fretting about them at all in books two or three, save maybe scattered references.

Of course she's not a completely stable person: (1) almost no one in this series is, and (2) she's been abused and taught to think she's shit all of her life. When she's old enough to bear children, she's sold to some mongol that rapes her. All of this by her own brother, who makes remarks such as,

"I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army."

She has never been predisposed to madness, like some of the Targaryens, though. All of her relative instability is born from her hardships, which is perfectly understandable. Dany is remarkable stable and sane, all things considered. Far more stable than, say, Catelyn, who actually went insane after Robb was killed. To call her a nutcase is flat-out wrong.

Not to mention that we'd better hope she thinks of Westeros as her home to take. She is its only hope, and you thinking of her as the potential bad guy is . . . absurd. She has been shown to be as altruistic as a leader can be without getting taken advantage of. Considering that her opponents in Westeros are the Lannisters, the Faith Militant and the Tyrells, all of whom are unfit to rule, I'm perplexed who you think the good guy is.

[aduidarnenye]

I don't mean she's the bad guy of the series. I meant that in terms of the traditional fantasy story, she's the invading empress about to rain fire and death upon Westeros. I see her being given a background for the readers to sympathize with even though the people of Westeros will see her as a dragon queen come to kill their lords and probably them as well. She's the other side of the story, the side you don't usually get to see in this type of novel. Also, she has often reminded me as a cross between Paul Atreides (who was a bit mad as well) and Queen Cleopatra (who was very intelligent).

Personally, I think it is fascinating how Martin has been able to create so many diverse characters that, while all may not please all fans, certain ones please certain fans. Honestly, when you get right down to it I believe the good guys are the humans and the bad guys are the Others. None of the characters have seen this except Lord Commander Jeor Mormont first and later Lord Commander Jon Snow. When they finally remember.

[Andalusian girls]

gonna be a long two weeks

gotta remember to take work off, a thousand pages it may be but i'd be surprised if it lasted more than two days

[Rhinox]

I'm on Team Jon Snow!

fuck dany

[geno]

I don't mean she's the bad guy of the series. I meant that in terms of the traditional fantasy story, she's the invading empress about to rain fire and death upon Westeros. I see her being given a background for the readers to sympathize with even though the people of Westeros will see her as a dragon queen come to kill their lords and probably them as well. She's the other side of the story, the side you don't usually get to see in this type of novel. Also, she has often reminded me as a cross between Paul Atreides (who was a bit mad as well) and Queen Cleopatra (who was very intelligent).

I feel it's closer to the opposite. In a normal story, its everyone else except Dany's viewpoints we wouldn't normally see. They are all playing petty games for a throne they all readily admit was usurped not so long ago. The Starks are the closest to honorable, but they are clearly not good leaders for a unified kingdom. Everyone else that has made any ploy for the throne has been corrupt, evil, self-interested, or otherwise poorly motivated and suited for it. In a normal story, I think we'd see purely Dany's viewpoint as she overcomes extreme adversity, realizes her own strength, and returns to rule a land that welcomes her readily after the shit they've gone through in the meantime.

I don't see her as an invading dragon queen at all, and I severely doubt the majority of people of Westeros will be unhappy about her arrival (outside of some of the current ruling houses). Even before the current war, I think it was no exaggeration when Illyrio told Viserys that the people drank secret toast to their health. I think it was pretty clear throughout the books that many of the people of Westeros GREATLY respected Targaryen rule over any of the other houses. And the fact that the entire kingdom went to shit less than 1 generation out of their hands will only amplify that feeling. I'm not saying everyone will welcome her return with open arms, but I sincerely doubt the people will fear her as an evil dragon queen come to kill them all.

And from Dany's viewpoint we can already definitely see that is not her intention. She clearly harbors some crazy resentment for the Lords of Lannister, Stark, and Baratheon (among others), but her feelings for the common people can only be seen as benevolent. I think this is pretty clear from how she handled her conquests of the slaving cities. She even went as far as to forgive Barriston despite being so particularly close to the Usurper. It's those in charge she wants to rain fire down upon, not simply the land that had forsaken her.

[FailureMidgard]

Honestly, when you get right down to it I believe the good guys are the humans and the bad guys are the Others. None of the characters have seen this except Lord Commander Jeor Mormont first and later Lord Commander Jon Snow. When they finally remember.

While it may come to be, I really really really hope it never becomes this simple. The best part of the series from the start is the HUMAN interaction. The fact that all the various characters have their own real motivations, reasons for doing things. I'm really personally not a fan of "muhaha gonna destroy the world" evil. I think the Others are beyond boring as such...I'm okay with them in the story, I'm ok with the looming threat, but I think there's millions of stories out there with some heroes vs some beasts.

I think the best stories are not Good vs Bad at all. Characters should be more complex (like Jaime, who starts out in even the readers' eyes as a pretty bad person, but then as you see things from his PoV, you realize he's really not such a bad guy after all, and his actions were almost RobinHoodesque.)

That being said, I like Jon and Dany both, yay!

[aduidarnenye]

Another great thing about this series is, apparently, all the different interpretations that it affords its readers!

I made a mistake earlier. It wasn't Jon Snow who realised they were fighting the wrong war. It was Stannis, through Davos, who realised it when everyone else had forgotten.

I just finished book 3. Sadly, my version fell completely apart as I was reading it. The binding was so old and brittle and read through so many times and it just could no longer hold up to the strain any longer. I might be forced to get one of those new-fangled electronic reader thingies.

How many days do I have to read through book 4 again?


I've been thinking about the word Brienne yells when Zombie Cat hangs her. I've thought about what it could possibly be over the years and have never come up with a good idea until tonight. I think she yells "Ice".

[aduidarnenye]

Also, if Daenarys is Azor Ahai, what is the sword Lightbringer? Or do the myths not completely overlap and the dragons are simply the sword made life?

[EternityEnd]

Some people speculate that her dragons are Lightbringer.

Not sure I buy it.

[Qalbert]

Isn't Cat not there when she's being hanged though so Ice would be meaningless?

[Odesseiron]

I think Cat is the one that ordered her hanged. Along with everyone else she was with. Could be wrong though. I fought tooth and nail to get through book 4.

[Qalbert]

yeah but like i thought some of the dudes took them outside to be hanged and cat was sitll in the cave w/e

[Rhinox]

they did. It wasn't far from the cave entrance but Cat wasn't there at the time of the hanging.

[Qalbert]

someone was theorizing the word was Arya since Brienne found out that she was tracking the wrong Stark, and someone else was like no Cat wasn't there so along the same lines basically

[Amiricle]

I feel it's closer to the opposite. In a normal story, its everyone else except Dany's viewpoints we wouldn't normally see. They are all playing petty games for a throne they all readily admit was usurped not so long ago. The Starks are the closest to honorable, but they are clearly not good leaders for a unified kingdom. Everyone else that has made any ploy for the throne has been corrupt, evil, self-interested, or otherwise poorly motivated and suited for it. In a normal story, I think we'd see purely Dany's viewpoint as she overcomes extreme adversity, realizes her own strength, and returns to rule a land that welcomes her readily after the shit they've gone through in the meantime.

I don't see her as an invading dragon queen at all, and I severely doubt the majority of people of Westeros will be unhappy about her arrival (outside of some of the current ruling houses). Even before the current war, I think it was no exaggeration when Illyrio told Viserys that the people drank secret toast to their health. I think it was pretty clear throughout the books that many of the people of Westeros GREATLY respected Targaryen rule over any of the other houses. And the fact that the entire kingdom went to shit less than 1 generation out of their hands will only amplify that feeling. I'm not saying everyone will welcome her return with open arms, but I sincerely doubt the people will fear her as an evil dragon queen come to kill them all.

And from Dany's viewpoint we can already definitely see that is not her intention. She clearly harbors some crazy resentment for the Lords of Lannister, Stark, and Baratheon (among others), but her feelings for the common people can only be seen as benevolent. I think this is pretty clear from how she handled her conquests of the slaving cities. She even went as far as to forgive Barriston despite being so particularly close to the Usurper. It's those in charge she wants to rain fire down upon, not simply the land that had forsaken her.

I'm confident Dorne will back her immediately, and theres a good chance Highgarden will follow suit or burn. With those 2, a quick domino effect will occur and her war for Westeros will not last long at all. Shes also the one person Stannis would concieveably yield his claim to without a fight.

[EternityEnd]

There's no evidence in the passage that Cat is absent from the hanging. I have no idea why people assume that. It's just conjecture.

[Qalbert]

The burden is on the text to establish if a character IS there, rather than is not there. That is to say, if a character is not said specifically to be in attendance, than it is not erroneous to assume they are not present, and depending on context, more fallacious to assume they ARE present.

[Qalbert]

I'm not saying that oh it didn't say it so she wasn't, but it's silly to say that her being there has more merit than her not being there, unless contextually there are lines like "everyone went outside" to establish her presence.