Cast and Recast

[Motenten]

Test rounding correctness:

999.75 == 1111 1001 1111b
round even should give 1000.0
round odd should give 999.5
round up should give 1000.0
round down should give 999.5

Verified these as operating correctly.




Redoing this test


So, one of the following is true:
1) Round-nearest, not round-zero
2) (recast * n)/N, not recast * (n/N) [and round-zero]

Given that, can we determine if one or the other of those is the actual case?

Determination:
1) Round-zero + (recast * n)/N
2a) Round-nearest + (recast * n)/N [round 0.5 even]
3a) Round-nearest + recast * (n/N) [round 0.5 even]
2b) Round-nearest + (recast * n)/N [round 0.5 odd]
3b) Round-nearest + recast * (n/N) [round 0.5 odd]
2c) Round-nearest + (recast * n)/N [round 0.5 up]
3c) Round-nearest + recast * (n/N) [round 0.5 up]
2d) Round-nearest + (recast * n)/N [round 0.5 down]
3d) Round-nearest + recast * (n/N) [round 0.5 down]


Aero III @1% (Loq):
1: 24
2a: 25
3a: 25
2b: 25
3b: 24
2c: 25
3c: 25
2d: 25
3d: 24

Observed: 24

Valid:
1
3b
3d


Curaga IV @7% (/rdm):
1: 9
2a: 10
3a: 10
2b: 9
3b: 10
2c: 10
3c: 10
2d: 9
3d: 10

Observed: 9

Valid:
1
2b
2d



Aero III @5% (Teal set):
1: 23
2a: 23
3a: 24
2b: 23
3b: 23
2c: 23
3c: 24
2d: 23
3d: 23

Observed: 23

Valid:
1
2a
2b
2c
2d
3b
3d


Firaga II @ 14% (/rdm, Teal set, Loq, Prolix)
1: 19
2a: 20
3a: 19
2b: 19
3b: 19
2c: 20
3c: 19
2d: 19
3d: 19

Observed: 19

Valid:
1
2b
2d
3a
3b
3c
3d



In all cases, round-zero gives a correct result.

In each case, either 2b/2d or 3b/3d was correct. round-even showed fewer correct results, which is a bit disappointing since that's the recommended default method; would have made this easier.

I would go with round-odd (b) or round-down (d) if we could find some way to eliminate the problem with 2 vs 3 (order of operations). Otherwise that appears to be the primary limiting factor preventing round-nearest from being an option.

[Byrthnoth]

I'd almost swear that at some point in this thread (or another one of our threads with a similar topic) someone posted a big spreadsheet with the different base recast values and associated spells. I'd like to test some of the armors I have to find their exact Haste values and such a table would make that task infinitely easier. Anyone know where it is?

[Motenten]

Dunno about the spreadsheet, but I can give you my list of spells with cast times.

Spoiler: show

Cure            5.00                    Blizzaga II     24.50
Protect II      5.25                    Aero III        25.25
Cure II         5.50                    Thundaga II     26.00
Protect IV      5.75                    Fire III        26.50
Cure III        6.00                    Refresh II      27.00
Stone           6.50                    Stonega III     27.25
Power Attack    7.25                    Blizzard III    27.75
Cure IV/Deod.   8.00                    Regen V         28.00
Aero            9.00                    Waterga III     28.50
Sandspin        9.75                    Thunder III     29.25
Curaga/Invis    10.00                   Aeroga III      29.75
Curaga II       10.25                   Cura            30.00
Curaga III      10.50                   Stone IV        30.75
Curaga IV       10.75                   Banishga II     31.00
Stonega         11.00                   Firaga III      31.50
Helldive        11.25                   Blizzaga III    32.75
Blizzard        11.50                   Aero IV         33.25
Bludgeon        11.75                   Ice Break       33.75
Regen           12.00                   Thundaga III    34.00
Waterga         12.25                   Fire IV         34.75
Thunder         13.00                   Blizzard IV     36.00
Aeroga          13.50                   Aero V          37.00
Banish          14.00                   Thunder IV      37.25
Grand Slam      14.25                   Stone V         39.00
Stone II        14.50                   Cura II         40.00
Protectra       15.00                   Water V         40.25
Firaga          15.25                   Cryohelix       41.00
Water II        15.75                   Freeze          41.50
Pro II/Regen II 16.00                   Tornado         42.25
Blizzaga        16.50                   Fire V          42.75
Protectra III   17.00                   Burst           43.25
Uppercut        17.75                   Flood           43.75
Pro IV/Refresh  18.00                   Blizzard V      44.00
Fire II         18.50                   Flare           44.50
Stonega II      19.00                   Stun/Flash      45.00
Cursed Sphere   19.50                   Waterja         46.25
Claw Cyclone    19.75                   Aeroja          47.50
Haste/Regen III 20.00                   Firaja          48.75
Waterga II      20.25                   Heat Breath     49.00
Sickle Slash    20.50                   Cura III        50.00
Ban. II/Th. II  21.00                   Holy II         55.00
Aeroga II       21.75                   Memento Mori    56.00
Stone III       22.50                   Reraise         60.00
Jet Stream      23.00                   Aspir II        75.00
Firaga II       23.25                   AM II           90.00
Dim. Death      23.75                   Jettatura/Feather Bar.  120.00
Regen IV        24.00                   Klimaform/Dread Sp.     180.00

[Byrthnoth]

Some of those values disagree with the lore on bgwiki. Considering that you're probably fewer human transmissions from the source I'd be inclined to take your values instead, but are you sure of these numbers? Specifically:
1) Aero V has a lower recast time than Stone V?
2) Invisible has a 10 second recast instead of 8 seconds?
3) Cryohelix has a 41 second recast time? (we have 17 seconds)
4) Protect IV shows up at 5.75 and Pro IV shows up at 18. I assume the second one is Protectra IV?

Thanks for the list!

[Motenten]

1) not sure. otherwiki has Aero V at 37 seconds, bgwiki has it at 41.5 ... checking.. shows as 41, so 41.5 is probably correct
2) invisible is 10 seconds
3) helix recast times were strange.. checking, cryohelix actually has a 45 second recast
4) yeah.. I shortened it to fit into the columns, sorry

[Mojo]

I posted it somewhere. Dunno where ╛ It didn't include every spell, just a good number of them, and was useful for testing.

[Heatsink]

I made a handy toolset a while back for testing magic cast and recast times. It reads the recast time from memory and logs to a file so you get the exact same number every time. It also logs the delay between starting to cast and when the recast memory value changes, which is dependent on server latency. Check the readme.txt to see how to use this. Source code is included!

http://pignax.com/pub/ffxitimer01.zip
http://pignax.com/pub/ffxitimer01-withsource.zip

[Yugl]

Hey, I was trying out the program, but I returned a "Could not open process, FFXI not open PID . . ." message.

[Yugl]

SCH/BLM: Klimaform + No Grimoire Active
Gear | Recast | (Seconds)
Argute 255 (175s)
Argute + Xsaeta 230 (150s)
Anhur + Xsaeta 225 (145s)
Goading + Xsaeta 227 (147s)
Xsaeta II 234 (154s)

Xsaeta's recast reduction is additive with Fast Cast and Multiplicative with Haste

Going off this, I'm going for another category moment and suggesting that all pieces explicating a type/category (ex: Thunder, Elemental Magic, Song, etc) and a reduction (ex: Cast time reduction or Recast reduction) are all a part of the Fast Cast terminology/category. If you recall earlier tests with cast time, you should remember that stuff such as Elemental Magic Cast Time Reduction (Or even Elemental Celerity) were additive with fast cast. These tests show corresponding gear (For element with this case though) for recast are additive as well. Thus, they all seem to be one categorical "term."

Edit: This makes fast cast much more appealing for recast when using the staves and not receiving haste since the Magian Staves are equivalent to 14% haste with one slot. If you use two 10% Fast Cast pieces (ex: Hyaline + Anhur), you end up with an equivalent to 24% haste; add any 4%+ fast cast pieces (ex: Orunmila) and you yield a reduction equivalent to capped gear haste. Since this is fast cast, you can actually add even more gear.

[Yugl]

SCH/BLM: Klimaform + No Grimoire Active
Gear | Recast | (Seconds)

Book 242 (162s)
Alacrity 130 (90s)
Alacrity + Xsaeta 117 (77s)
Alacrity + Goading Belt 125 (85s)
Alacrity + Goading Belt + Anhur Robe + Xsaeta 109 (69s)

Confirms what we already know (Was hoping to see Haste and Grimoire stack); Grimoire =/= Haste =/= Fast Cast

[Heatsink]

Hey, I was trying out the program, but I returned a "Could not open process, FFXI not open PID . . ." message.

Oh, if you are using anything besides windows XP as Administrator (which you would only do if you are crazy!), ffxitimer.exe needs extra permissions because it does inter-process reads with PROCESS_VM_READ. Try running it with administrative permissions, or using windows' XP compatability mode option. I must mention that if you're the paranoid type, please have someone look over the source code first before you trust this unknown program (it's very simple C code).

[Yugl]

You're right, I tried with admin and this worked. I haven't tested the trigger, but so far, this works. Thanks.

[grevenilvec75]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post392863

Dunno if this helps you guys at all, but we have official cast/recast times for various elemental magic now.

[dasva]

Anyone have any info on how Carbuncle's Cuffs work for casting?

[geno3302]

Anyone have any info on how Carbuncle's Cuffs work for casting?

reduces cast time by 1 second

[dasva]

How does it work with fast cast?

[Yugl]

You would need to test that, but seemingly the same was Elemental Magic CTR does (Additively).

[Yugl]

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36...morie/#2316457

[Prothescar]

There's a significantly less complicated/annoying/headache inducing way of doing this than using floating point formats based on the fact that the server counts in 60ths of a second.

1) recast in seconds * 60

ex. 33.75s recast = 2025




2) multiply by fast cast

ex. 20% fast cast: 2025 * 0.9 = 1822 (after truncation)



3) apply haste

ex. 55/1024 haste: 1822 * 0.9462890625 = 1724 (after truncation)



4) divide by 60 to get the new value in seconds. the server reduces this value by 1 for every cycle... when it reaches 0, you can cast again.

[Motenten]

Unfortunately that ends up suffering from the same failings as some of the previous math calculations. It's quite simple, and working in integer math is definitely preferred if possible, but it leads to conflicting, irreconcilable results.

A particularly problematic pair of spells:
Protectra IV
Stoneskin

Both using 162/1024 haste (Blessed Mitts, Goading Belt, Goliard Saio, and either Nashira head or Blessed feet).

Pro4 actual: 14 seconds
SS actual: 25 seconds

Pro4 predicted: 14 seconds at /60, increasing to 15 seconds at /230
SS predicted: 24 seconds at /60, increaseing to 25 seconds at /256

Basically, the default prediction on Stoneskin fails, and if you increase resolution to get it to pass, Protectra IV starts to fail before Stoneskin starts to pass.


Also, recompiled my test spell list. Fixed a few errors and added new spells.

Spoiler: show

                        Base Recast (s)         Base Recast (/60)
Cure                    5.00                    300
Protect II              5.25                    315
Cure II                 5.50                    330
Protect IV              5.75                    345
Cure III                6.00                    360
Diaga II                6.25                    375
Stone                   6.50                    390
Dia III                 7.00                    420
Power Attack            7.25                    435
Water                   7.75                    465
Cure IV/Deodorize       8.00                    480
Aero                    9.00                    540
Sandspin                9.75                    585
Aquaveil/Blaze Spikes   10.00                   600
Curaga II/Fire          10.25                   615
Curaga III              10.50                   630
Curaga IV               10.75                   645
Stonega/Curaga V        11.00                   660
Helldive                11.25                   675
Blizzard                11.50                   690
Bludgeon                11.75                   705
Regen                   12.00                   720
Waterga                 12.25                   735
Thunder                 13.00                   780
Aeroga                  13.50                   810
Screwdriver             14.00                   840
Grand Slam              14.25                   855
Stone II                14.50                   870
Protectra               15.00                   900
Firaga                  15.25                   915
Water II                15.75                   945
Regen II                16.00                   960
Blizzaga                16.50                   990
Protectra III           17.00                   1020
Winds of Promy.         17.50                   1050
Uppercut/Thundaga       17.75                   1065
Protectra IV/Refresh    18.00                   1080
Fire II                 18.50                   1110
Shellra V/Stonega II    19.00                   1140
Mandibular Bite         19.25                   1155
Cursed Sphere/Fira      19.50                   1170
Claw Cyclone/Bliz II    19.75                   1185
Haste/Regen III         20.00                   1200
Waterga II              20.25                   1215
Thunder II              21.00                   1260
Aeroga II               21.75                   1305
Barbed Crescent         22.00                   1320
Stone III               22.50                   1350
Jet Stream              23.00                   1380
Firaga II               23.25                   1395
Dimensional Death       23.75                   1425
Regen IV/Brd songs      24.00                   1440
Blizzaga II             24.50                   1470
Demoralizing Roar       25.00                   1500
Aero III                25.25                   1515
Goblin Rush             25.50                   1530
Fire III                26.50                   1590
Refresh II              27.00                   1620
Stonega III             27.25                   1635
Fira II                 27.50                   1650
Blizzard III            27.75                   1665
Regen V                 28.00                   1680
Waterga III             28.50                   1710
Blizzara II             29.00                   1740
Thunder III             29.25                   1755
Wind Breath             29.50                   1770
Aeroga III              29.75                   1785
Cura/Stoneskin          30.00                   1800
Thundara II             30.50                   1830
Stone IV                30.75                   1845
Whirl of Rage           31.00                   1860
Firaga III              31.50                   1890
Quadratic Cont.         31.75                   1905
Water IV                32.00                   1920
Water Bomb              32.25                   1935
Blizzaga III            32.75                   1965
Aero IV                 33.25                   1995
Ice Break               33.75                   2025
Thundaga III            34.00                   2040
Flying Hip Press        34.50                   2070
Fire IV                 34.75                   2085
Blizzard IV             36.00                   2160
Aero V                  37.00                   2220
Thunder IV              37.25                   2235
Stone V                 39.00                   2340
Cura II/Bind            40.00                   2400
Water V                 40.25                   2415
Empty Thrash            40.75                   2445
Aero V                  41.50                   2490
Tornado                 42.25                   2535
Quadrastrike            42.50                   2550
Fire V                  42.75                   2565
Burst                   43.25                   2595
Flood                   43.75                   2625
Blizzard V              44.00                   2640
Flare                   44.50                   2670
Stun/Flash              45.00                   2700
Thunder V               45.50                   2730
Waterja                 46.25                   2775
Aeroja                  47.50                   2850
Benthic Typhoon         48.00                   2880
Firaja                  48.75                   2925
Heat Breath             49.00                   2940
Cura III/Sleepga II     50.00                   3000
Thundaja                51.25                   3075
Reraise                 60.00                   3600
Aspir II                75.00                   4500
AM II                   90.00                   5400
Klimaform/Dread Sp.    180.00                  10800