Weapon Skills

**Mercilessturtle** · 2013-01-18 16:26

Pummel does beat smite by a small but significant margin. It is just that if it really has the mods and crit bonus that have been tested, it should beat it by a much larger margin.

**Dotsudoku** · 2013-01-18 22:30

Anecdote etc, but I've always gotten consistently poor results out of Pummel, particularly outside of Abyssea(lending to the idea that the crit rate may be involved)

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-01-18 22:32

Went out on THF against Rabbits in Abyssea - La Theine and got a non-crit very quickly with the same setup as before and no Rancorous Mantle. Then I got a non-crit with the same setup as before (69+?% crit rate). I need to re-organize my junk so I have exactly 70% crit rate and test again, but that's not a project for tonight.

**Mercilessturtle** · 2013-01-19 00:04

Code:

Weaponskill Damage
Player                 WSkill Dmg  Abs'd.Dmg   Net Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg
Mercilessturtle            202561          0    202561    35.44 %     100/0   100.00 %    994/3306  2025.61
 - Stringing Pummel        102087          0    102087    50.40 %      50/0   100.00 %   1433/3098  2041.74
 - Victory Smite           100474          0    100474    49.60 %      50/0   100.00 %    994/3306  2009.48

That's with the same WS gear for both (including the wrong ele belt/gorget for pummel). I'm really not sure where the insistence that pummel is so bad comes from, it consistently beats smite.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-01-19 05:55

So, I recommend not testing on Bluffalo unless you have to. Now I've moved to Tigers/Rarabs in Abyssea - La Theine and it's much easier to see Evisceration non-crits because their HP/defense is so much lower. Combine that with a little luck and you get non-crits with:
Twashtar/Centovente/____/Potestas
Skadi+1/Rancor/Suppa/Brutal
Athos's/Skadi+1/Thundersoul/Rajas
Atheling/Twilight/Athos's/Thaumas
Atmas: RR/SQ/Omnipotent
3+5+3+30+10+25 = 76% base crit rate (24% maximum boost from WS)

I bring the monsters to 3% HP or less with Banish and then WS them with 100-103 TP and Centovente. I got an 11 TP return that only did 696 damage (single-hit damages were varying between 485 and 708 ), so that was probably a crit and a non-crit.

Now I am testing:
Twashtar/Centovente/____/Potestas
Skadi+1/Rancor/Suppa/Brutal
Athos's/Thaumas/Thundersoul/Rajas
Atheling/Twilight/Thaumas/Thaumas
Atmas: RR/GH/Omnipotent
5+30+20+25 = 80% base crit rate

@64 crits in a row

**Taim Meich** · 2013-01-19 06:38

BTW, for crit modded WS, other than testing for crit, it doesn't matter at what TP you do WS at, right?

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-01-19 06:39

If you're just interested in attack, yes. Only Empyrean and Mythic weapons have two things that vary with TP and the second of those is aftermath.

Edit:
Added another 50 Crit Eviscerations at 300 TP with Razed Ruins/Omnipotent and Rancor Collar on (40% crit rate boost at 300TP).

**noodles355** · 2013-01-19 08:56

The way you describe Pummel "not performing as well as it should" reminds me of Drakesbane before people discovered the attack penalty on it.

**fantasticdan** · 2013-01-19 12:16

Well on paper it should be the best hand to hand WS in the game, even without KKK. In reality, it averages significantly lower than shijin. I can't imagine attack penalty would be the culprit, since it performs poorly even on extremely low end EP mobs, and doesn't appear to fall off on harder stuff like say requiescat would.

**Ophannus** · 2013-01-19 14:40

Maybe the subsequent hits have a lower ftp. Maybe like 0.75 for the first hit and like 0.5 for additional hits?

**Mercilessturtle** · 2013-01-19 15:01

That would put it way too low. 0.75 might work though, just waiting for the chip guy to open so I can make a flame gorget and test if all hits share the same ftp. Given how few WS there were with <1 ftp before merit WS were added, and that all the merit WS with <1 ftp duplicate ftp across all hits, I wouldn't be shocked if we've just been wrong about ftp the whole time. And that it is actually "additional hits are capped at 1 ftp" rather than "additional hits are always 1 ftp".

**Mercilessturtle** · 2013-01-19 16:27

Well that's not it. 50 pummels with gorget+belt vs 50 without: 2113/2041. Which is very close to the expected 5.95/5.75.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-01-19 16:50

Lame, good to know though. Could we get these posts moved to the WS testing thread?

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-01-20 20:09

Thanks!

So, today I did a Jishnu's Radiance against worms in Abyssea - La Theine with Athos's Tabard and Razed Ruins (and Gnarled Horn). I did several from the sweet spot (one arrow) and they did 6764 damage. From outside the sweet spot (also one arrow) it did 6322 damage.

FLOOR(FLOOR(999*.6,1)*.85,1) = 509 from the modifier
fSTR with 99 Gandiva = 42
Weapon (D117) and Ammo (D46) = 157
Total damage = 509+42+157 = 713

713*1.75*3.75*1.07*1.35 = 6758, flooring order doesn't seem to matter

So where is my extra 6 damage coming from? It's 0.1%

With 255 DEX and still-capped fSTR and capped Ratio, I do 3173 damage from the sweet spot. Depending how you floor the formula predicts 3163~3166 damage.

My attempts to vary Crit damage and True Shot very slightly are unsuccessful. They can't account for this, I think. It's something in the fTP (1.75) or pDIF cap (3.75).

**dasva** · 2013-01-21 18:18

Originally Posted by Byrthnoth

FLOOR(FLOOR(999*.6,1)*.85,1) = 509 from the modifier
fSTR with 99 Gandiva = 42
Weapon (D117) and Ammo (D46) = 157
Total damage = 509+42+157 = 713

A couple of errors here.

509 + 42 + 157 = 708

However

117 +46 = 163

So 509 + 42 +163= 714 which appears to work depending on flooring order

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-01-23 13:34

Hmm... okay!

Two things, first of all:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/907...=1#post4362337
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Talk:Rudra%27s_Storm

I think I excluded Studio Gobhli's 300 TP fTP for Rudra's. It's likely 5.35.

Secondly, anyone remember where I left my Tornado Kick testing? I remember determining the 300TP fTP with a brew and giving us reason to change the 30% VIT mod originally reported by Motenten to 26.5625% VIT, but I don't remember where I posted it.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-01-23 14:28

In preparation of a WS section revamp for BGwiki, I've tabulated the remaining unknown information:

Spoiler: show

Bold means it's probably fairly easy to do. Blue means it's probably impossible to do. Neither means it's possible but not easy.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-02-05 11:46

In the process of going through the pages, I have found some more weaponskills that strike me as odd:

1) Skewer - 3 hits, 35% STR mod, chance to crit with a polearm. Why was this never as good as Raging Rush?

2) Blade: Ku - 5 hit Katana WSNM with an Accuracy-TP dependance, for some reason it only rates a 10% STR/DEX mod. Why? Asuran Fists uses a higher base damage weapon, has more hits, has the same TP dependance, and gets a stronger mod.

3) Power Slash - Skill 30 "Chance to Critical Hit" WS. - Is this like Blade: Rin in that it doesn't consider gear/etc.?

4) I'm not sure what are Hybrid WSs and what are not. Superficially, it seems:
* Flaming Arrow
* Hot Shot
* Blade: Chi
* Tachi: Jinpu

Do we know any others that are Hybrids? For some reason I vaguely remember Yu was Hybrid?

5) What are Blade: Chi's fTPs?

After scanning Gobli, it seems these WSs are likely hybrid:
Katana: Blade: To / Teki / Chi
GKT: Tachi: Goten / Kagero / Jinpu / Koki
Archery: Flaming Arrow
Marksmanship: Hot Shot

**Niiro** · 2013-02-05 12:22

Asuran mod is (essentially) the same as Ku with 10% STR/VIT, in practice Ku is also 6 hits.

As for why Asuran still gets more hits with a higher DMG weapon I don't think anyone really needs to ask "why would SE make this underwhelming WS?" considering the vast majority of WSs are useless, even the vast majority of the quested WSs (Asuran, Evis, and Kasha for SC purposes are about it).

The fTPs for Chi are listed already unless you have some reason to doubt them.

As for what WSs constitute as hybrids wouldn't the simplest way to find out be just using them with a lvl 1 weapon? Since magical WSs aren't effected by base damage.

**Byrthnoth** · 2013-02-05 12:23

Hybrid WSs are affected by base damage, though. It's complicated: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104...=1#post5052148

Also, I found the Chi mods after I posted that.

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