Scion FR-S

[Boyiee]

Not a fan of Scion (every time I see one of those boxes on wheels, I want to punch the driver), but this looks decent.

I feel the same, although I also dislike wrx's. I guess if I had the money though I would get one since it is all-wheel drive. I usually stick to used cars under 10k, and can't really justify anything over 25k, nor anything with siub 22mpg (even though I drive an suv with 12-15mpg now lolz, but at least I haven't been sliding into any parked cars like my last vehicle).

[Amastacia]

So an SOA rep posted a while back on NASIOC with a couple officially unofficial details.

Most importantly, the Subaru version will NOT be AWD. Yeah, brand image and all that, but they'd have to move the engine out in front of the axle to fit an AWD drivetrain, and that would hose the sporty handling.

There was no comment on the motor. The Toyota version is using an FB20 variant with Toyota's combo port/direct injection, which would make the earlier claims about ~200HP feasible from a 2L boxer. Would need forged con rods though, the ones in the standard FB20 wouldn't be up to task.

Fairly excited about this thing, in both Toyota/Scion and Subaru trim, but I am curious to see if Subaru sticks with the FB20, turbos it (interesting idea, but not sure the engine is really designed for it), or just slaps in an EJ20 or EJ25 (hopefully the former).

[Dantrag]

Yeah, Subaru confirmed that they were doing RWD at one of the shows a few months ago. The engine should be able to handle a turbo without any issues as everywhere else pretty much uses the 2.0L boxer. So I'm assuming the new engine should be able to handle it as well.

[*Shinzon*]

So an SOA rep posted a while back on NASIOC with a couple officially unofficial details.

Most importantly, the Subaru version will NOT be AWD. Yeah, brand image and all that, but they'd have to move the engine out in front of the axle to fit an AWD drivetrain, and that would hose the sporty handling.

There was no comment on the motor. The Toyota version is using an FB20 variant with Toyota's combo port/direct injection, which would make the earlier claims about ~200HP feasible from a 2L boxer. Would need forged con rods though, the ones in the standard FB20 wouldn't be up to task.

Fairly excited about this thing, in both Toyota/Scion and Subaru trim, but I am curious to see if Subaru sticks with the FB20, turbos it (interesting idea, but not sure the engine is really designed for it), or just slaps in an EJ20 or EJ25 (hopefully the former).

Insideline confirmed that while initially the Subaru version will be RWD, the chassis and current figuration would allow for the AWD drivetrain to be used. Initially they didn't think it would fit but after examining the chassis more closely they don't think it would be difficult to have awd added.

[jmc]

Yeah, Subaru confirmed that they were doing RWD at one of the shows a few months ago. The engine should be able to handle a turbo without any issues as everywhere else pretty much uses the 2.0L boxer. So I'm assuming the new engine should be able to handle it as well.

unless I missed something, wouldn't a 2.0L engine be a step backwards for subaru?

I thought they upgraded all their cars to 2.5L engines around 2005? As at least my wrx has a 2.5L

[*Shinzon*]

The new boxer engine is still 2.5l I believe.

Edit: ok the new boxer in the impreza is a 2.0L, but the performance engines will most likely be stroked to 2.5L because you wouldput less stress on the engine. That's actually one of the issues with the evo, requires so much more boost so mpg is worse and the engine is placed under more stress.

[Dantrag]

unless I missed something, wouldn't a 2.0L engine be a step backwards for subaru?

I thought they upgraded all their cars to 2.5L engines around 2005? As at least my wrx has a 2.5L

The new boxer engine is still 2.5l I believe.

Edit: ok the new boxer in the impreza is a 2.0L, but the performance engines will most likely be stroked to 2.5L because you wouldput less stress on the engine. That's actually one of the issues with the evo, requires so much more boost so mpg is worse and the engine is placed under more stress.

JP version is still 2.0L, it's actually overall a stronger engine but as Americans we want more low end torque. Which the 2.5L provides over the 2.0L. But overall you def get more with the 2.0L.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_...Specifications

[*Shinzon*]

There's some truth to that, but there's a saying that goes "There's no replacement for displacement." Bigger displacement usually means bigger power with less stress. Though I've never quite understood how GM manages to only get 450HP out of a 6.8L V8, when there are smaller ones that make just as much.

[Korietsu]

Also have to remember that the new 2.0 boxer is missing DFI...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/10/s...oes-it-matter/

[Dantrag]

Also have to remember that the new 2.0 boxer is missing DFI...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/10/s...oes-it-matter/

Actually it's not. Toyota was actually the ones doing the R&D on the DFI(assuming you mean direct fuel injection).

There's some truth to that, but there's a saying that goes "There's no replacement for displacement." Bigger displacement usually means bigger power with less stress. Though I've never quite understood how GM manages to only get 450HP out of a 6.8L V8, when there are smaller ones that make just as much.

It really depends on what the car is made for. Rally cars are beast and they're limited to 2.0L. engines. F1 are some of the fastest cars there are and I think some of those are running 1.8L V8s. Lower displacement means higher RPMs. Subaru's current 2.5L only revs up to 6k, which is pretty crappy .

[Diamicles]

F1 cars are 2.4L V8s right now, and rev up to 18k rpms.

High revving engines really are more dependent on camshaft timing profiles than displacement. That's why engines using technology like i-VTEC perform so well at higher RPM ranges.

[Korietsu]

Actually it's not. Toyota was actually the ones doing the R&D on the DFI(assuming you mean direct fuel injection).



It really depends on what the car is made for. Rally cars are beast and they're limited to 2.0L. engines. F1 are some of the fastest cars there are and I think some of those are running 1.8L V8s. Lower displacement means higher RPMs. Subaru's current 2.5L only revs up to 6k, which is pretty crappy .

"The new FB20 engine is a small step forward from its EJ20 predecessor, featuring better power, emissions and economy (Subaru estimates that mpg is up by around 10 percent). Americans will have to take our word on this improvement, though, as it's been years since we've had a Subaru two-liter sans turbo. The engine pulls off the mild improvement without the help of direct injection – the absence of which is disappointing."

From that article. Please read first.

[Dantrag]

"The new FB20 engine is a small step forward from its EJ20 predecessor, featuring better power, emissions and economy (Subaru estimates that mpg is up by around 10 percent). Americans will have to take our word on this improvement, though, as it's been years since we've had a Subaru two-liter sans turbo. The engine pulls off the mild improvement without the help of direct injection – the absence of which is disappointing."

From that article. Please read first.

That article has nothing to do with the FR-S or with Toyota.

Skip to about 7min in.



It's going to be direct and port injection. As I stated Toyota was doing the R&D on the injection, and that article had nothing to do with that.

[Amastacia]

Insideline confirmed that while initially the Subaru version will be RWD, the chassis and current figuration would allow for the AWD drivetrain to be used. Initially they didn't think it would fit but after examining the chassis more closely they don't think it would be difficult to have awd added.

Subaru *could* move the engine forward, but they've said outright that it's contrary to the mission and character of such a car, and have no plans whatsoever to ever even try to add AWD.

It would instantly ruin the handling and turn the car into an understeering pig (see also: all stock forms of the Impreza, including WRX and STI, though Subaru doesn't make an effort to ameliorate the situation in light of the fact that most drivers aren't as good as they think they are and understeer is safer than neutrality or oversteer).

unless I missed something, wouldn't a 2.0L engine be a step backwards for subaru?

I thought they upgraded all their cars to 2.5L engines around 2005? As at least my wrx has a 2.5L

In theory, yes, in practice, no.

The EJ207 in the JP market has forged pistons, forged connecting rods, a more aggressive tune, equal length exhaust manifolds, and a twin-scroll turbo. The EJ257 for international markets has hypereutectic cast pistons, cast connecting rods, a pretty mediocre tune (especially 2008+), unequal length manifolds, and a single-scroll turbo.

If the EJ257 were built with the same parts, and tuned just as aggressively, it would be a better engine than the EJ207 (but would still have a lower redline to keep peak piston speeds reasonable). It would also price the STI out of the market and likely fail emissions in the US. The base 4 door STI in Japan costs about the equivalent of $45k in the US. A non-trivial part of the cost difference is in the engine bay (along with some in the interior, and some with Japanese car prices being higher in general).

Also have to remember that the new 2.0 boxer is missing DFI...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/10/s...oes-it-matter/

Actually it's not. Toyota was actually the ones doing the R&D on the DFI(assuming you mean direct fuel injection).

Dantrag's already answered this pretty well, but the FB20 is more than capable of supporting DI, it just isn't implemented at launch. The cylinder head is architected such that a fuel injector can be added without any major modifications.

One of Subaru's marketing pillars is reliability. They are not early adopters of new technology until there is a level of comfort with its reliability. Subaru simply isn't big enough or rich enough to gamble with unproven technology, they don't have enough ability to react quickly and re-engineer while supporting costly repair/recall efforts.

It works out pretty well that Toyota is doing the DFI R&D, their hybrid port/direct injection model goes a long way towards preventing carbon buildups on the intake valves, which has been one of DFI's Achilles' heels. Go ask any RS4 owner about it.

[*Shinzon*]

Subaru *could* move the engine forward, but they've said outright that it's contrary to the mission and character of such a car, and have no plans whatsoever to ever even try to add AWD.

Like I said before, InsideLine took a look at the mockup of the car they brought to the show, and while reviewing it they noticed that an AWD drivetrain would fit without any modifications and in fact the model itself appeared to be AWD yet the plaque and subsequent press release emphasized it was only RWD. Probably because subaru is developing another generation of their AWD system that isn't ready for production yet. They also speculated that the more powerful versions in STI trim would be turbocharged engines. Subaru has also been remarkably quiet about what upper level trim options would be available. I'll try to find the article and post it here but I'm not sure if I'll be able to, it was also on Autoblog while back. All together there isn't much to complain about especially if the car is going to be as light as they think it is than it'll just be offered as a traditional sports car. Though the reason they need to leave that AWD option open is because certain markets have already made it clear they have no interest in a RWD car, like Subaru Australia. I think it would be foolish not to offer both here in the US, if not initially at least over time, for cold weather states.

[Dantrag]

Also if I'm not mistaken the pistons for this car are actually being made by Yamaha. Or the heads... shit something is being made by Yamaha, I just forget what.

Edit Video:

[Dantrag]

Nothing new but from Toyota EU:

The 2.0-liter naturally-aspirated engine is the result of a joint development between Subaru and Toyota, bringing together their technical know-how and passion for sports cars. Subaru brings its newly developed horizontally opposed boxer engine while Toyota adds its D-4S technology (direct injection combined with port injection). This results in increased horsepower and torque without sacrificing fuel consumption and environmental performance.

The flat-four engine will be mated to either a six-speed manual or a six-speed automatic transmission. The manual will offer quick and precise shifts with a short-throw, while the automatic transmission will feature sporty shifts controlled by steering-wheel-mounted paddle shifts. Power will be distributed effectively to the rear wheels through a limited-slip differential.

Based on an entirely new front-engined and rear-wheel drive platform the production model will offer the driver confident stability and manoeuvrability, while still being quick and nimble into and out of any corner.

The FT-86 final production model will be realised around the idea of unique balance thanks to its compact dimensions, light weight design and low centre of gravity ensuring the best possible power-to-weight ratio and resulting in an intrinsic joy of driving.

[Nitsuki]

just coming in to say that I WANT THIS CAR AND MY NAME WILL BE IN THE RESERVE LIST!

[Edidas]

From International Auto show from NYC last sunday
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...s/CIMG5142.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...s/CIMG5139.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...s/CIMG5138.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...CIMG5137-1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...s/CIMG5141.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...s/CIMG5140.jpg

i hope they keep that mirror when the official model come out

[*Shinzon*]

Kinda hate to bump this, but I'd figure there's gonna be substantial interest. The FT concept has finally hit the ring for testing and as such we now have a basic idea of what the car will look like. With a turbo and AWD I'm gonna be all over this. But it doesn't make sense to me without those features as a subaru model. If AWD though it would make a spectacular daily driver for cold weather states.

Via Autoblog:

We have the Scion FR-S on the brain, and it's not going away anytime soon thanks to the onslaught of new spy photos that keep rolling in. This time, however, we've got video instead of still photography courtesy of our friends at FT86club.com.

It's always great to see a car in motion, and besides, now we have an idea of what the Scion sports car's exhaust note might sound like.

We've been having some fun at Autoblog HQ debating exactly what's going on under all of that swirly camouflage. Some think we may, in fact, be looking at the Subaru version of the Toyota/Subie joint venture – that wing and those wheels say STI to us. However, others point out that the wing could easily be a shout-out to the Supras of yore. Regardless, we all like what we see and can't wait until someone pulls the wraps off this thing. Click past the jump to see the prototype in motion.