Al Fatah and Hamas agree to form unity government in Palestine

[Kuya]

lol

[Zoolander]

Slow down with the word terrorist, you are using it pretty fucking liberally.

I'm hardly one to white knight for Hamas, but its not like every single one of them shoots rockets into Israel on a daily basis or something. Palestinians have been incredibly fragmented lately, even within their own little factions. As Kuya and others have said, you have to get a unified front if you want to take the necessary steps to statehood. This had to happen.

[Ashmada]

When that many countries, including the EU, officially list an organisation as terrorist, I don't think I'm using the word liberally.
I've only used it about the organisation, you'll notice, not individual members, so why the strawman?

[Zoolander]

but come on, we're talking Hamas. Hamas. An organisation pretty much everyone recognizes as terrorist in nature

Thing is, the Israelian authority might eventually come to tire of the bloodshed; but a terrorist organisation?

And I hope the UN isn't crazy enough to legitimize terrorists.

Straw man? Nigga what the fuck you talking about, do you even know what a straw man is? Your whole argument was centered around Hamas being terrorists so I challenged that notion.

Obviously things will have to change, no one is saying they can reach statehood with the current status quo. Combining with Fatah could/should water them down a bit...and for the millionth time, make negotiating agreements & implementing said agreements an actually be a possibility. Whether or not it actually happens remains to be seen. First step first step first step.

[Ashmada]

Straw man? Nigga what the fuck you talking about, do you even know what a straw man is? Your whole argument was centered around Hamas being terrorists so I challenged that notion.

What the fuck are YOU on about? Hamas is a terrorist organisation, yes, I've said that all along, but then you just randomly brought up how some individual members might not be and that means I'm using the word liberally... I never targetted said individual members.
If you want to make a distinction between sub-groups, fine, it's quite random, but fine.

[Correction]

An organisation pretty much everyone recognizes as terrorist in nature, even countries that aren't pro-Israel in the slightest. Giving them any kind of political weight is beyond stupid.

Further, if they don't recognize Israel's sovereignity, it's pretty obvious they can't make a deal with Israel.

You seem to forget that the Israeli lockdown on Gaza is still in effect. You don't starve a people and force them to live in rubble for three years and say the one group still feeding/providing medical services to said people does not deserve political recognition or a say in future peace negotiations.

Who had #16 in the pool for the 'hay I'm regurgitating dumb things I heard on the TV' post in this thread?

It's also laughable that you're worried the UN will recognize terrorists when but for one consistent veto-empowered holdout, the UN would have officially condemned a fair handful of Israeli actions in the last 5 years. Something something winners something history books.

[Ashmada]

You seem to forget that the Israeli lockdown on Gaza is still in effect. You don't starve a people and force them to live in rubble for three years and say the one group still feeding/providing medical services to said people does not deserve political recognition or a say in future peace negotiations.

FFS, I knew I'd get misrepresented as pro-Israel even after openly critisizing the actions of Israelian authority, but come on, can we tone down the lazy mockery and strawmen?
Ends, means...

Who had #16 in the pool for the 'hay I'm regurgitating dumb things I heard on the TV' post in this thread?

To tell them they're wrong and yours won? Doesn't get much dumber than a "the ends justify the means" rhethoric.
Btw, you really don't know our TV and your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

[Correction]

You've never explained why political recognition for Hamas would be 'stupid.' If your reasons fail to extend past 'well herp derp said they're terrorists so there' then you'd better grow a spine and stop overreacting when someone has to read into what you're giving us, which so far has been very very little.

[Ashmada]

If your reasons to endorse terrorism fail to extend past "well herp derp starving", then you'd better grow[...]

2 can play that game, but I'm none too interested to play it further. Childishness and strawmen can be fun 5 minutes but no longer.

It's also laughable that you're worried the UN will recognize terrorists when but for one consistent veto-empowered holdout, the UN would have officially condemned a fair handful of Israeli actions in the last 5 years.

A fair number of Israeli actions need condemning, undoubtedly; but I don't suscribe to the false dichotomy you imply there.
I'm not really worried, either: it's quite unlikely.

[Correction]

If your reasons to endorse terrorism

lol

[solanis]

Hamas is defined as a terrorist nation by most of the developed world, to dismiss it as "NOT TERRORISTS" is absurd and I think you realize that deep down. But they'd be terrorists if they weren't fucking with jews, of course.

[Correction]

The question is why is it a bad idea to recognize Hamas. They won a democratic election to represent their own people. They supply services that the Palestinian Authority does not. It is certainly doing what a real government should do for its people. So why is it 'stupid' to recognize them as such? It's obvious why people like Bibi don't want to deal with Hamas, they gain nothing from simply recognizing them. But why shouldn't the UN, since that was Ashmada's expressed fear?

[Rhinox]

lol

You're arguing with a Belgian with spell check who believes banning homemade lunches in schools is an infringement of personal liberty. Not to mention there is a strong anti-Muslim sentiment in Belgium.

wouldn't be surprised if he was a supporter of the Vlaams Belang. which is pretty much the Belgian version of the tea party.

[archibaldcrane]

The question is why is it a bad idea to recognize Hamas. They won a democratic election to represent their own people. They supply services that the Palestinian Authority does not. It is certainly doing what a real government should do for its people. So why is it 'stupid' to recognize them as such? It's obvious why people like Bibi don't want to deal with Hamas, they gain nothing from simply recognizing them. But why shouldn't the UN, since that was Ashmada's expressed fear?

Because Hamas kills Israeli children, while Israel shows nothing but respect and dignity towards the health and welfare of Palestinians.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

[Kuya]

If what you genuinely want is for the Palestinians to have a State, then one of the best ways to go about that is for Hamas and Fatah to form a unity government and go outside Israel and the US to assist in negotiations. Regardless of Hamas being a terrorist organization or not, it is the elected representative in Gaza and you have to deal with them diplomatically if you want an end to the conflict.

[Plow]

Well, I think "best ways" is up for debate there.

I also think that as a staunch opponent of Israel, you should probably realize by now that it's pretty hard to deal diplomatically with people whose response is "if you don't give us what we want we'll fucking kill you."

[Elvis]

The ANC was labeled a terrorist organization. Nelson Mandela was on our terrorist list until several years ago.

[EDIT: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...atchlist_N.htm Source: USAToday; I don't know if he's still on it or not. At this point it's basically an embarrassing clerical error, however back then we supported apartheid South Africa. Israel had close relations with apartheid South Africa and was one of their chief arms suppliers.]

Hamas hasn't engaged in suicide bombing for several years. Suicide bombing began in 1994. How long was the occupation going on before then?

Israel kills Palestinian children at a ratio of 10 to 1, and Palestinian civilians at a ratio of 5 to 1. Then says 'human shields'.

Hamas fires crude rockets and while those are a war crimes, I would like people to compare the capabilities of both armies. Let's donate some Hellfire missiles, Apache helicopters, tanks, etc to Hamas so they can fight fair!

Israel and it's supporters like to mention the sheer number of rockets fired as a way to compensate for the lack of casualties, to win some sympathy in the 'war of narratives':

3000 rockets fired at us by the terrorist organization Hamas that has vowed to destroy Israel, the tiny Jewish State.

Compelling and rich. Except, that if we were to go about it the other way, in the first days of of the 2nd Intifada, IDF soldiers fired something like 5,000 rounds at Palestinians (something along those lines - basically some high amount that led to a senior official publicly declaring his disgust).

But who gives a shit. The rockets are a talking point, but I think at the same time they let the world know that the Palestinians exist. It's difficult to write them off as a cry for help, but Israel has control over Gazan airspace/waters/borders (although Egypt is apparently going to open it's end up soon which is great).

They are a war crime, yes. I wouldn't want to be governed by Hamas and I think the Palestinians deserve so much better than the spineless US/Israeli puppets in Fatah but they are the current representatives of the Palestinians.

It's been decades. Decades of colonization and occupation. Why does Israel expand settlements when it's all illegal? This is a colonial conflict. The violence exists within THAT framework. Do you think the weaker side is going to behave like 'noble savages' in the movies? No. There is terrorism. There was terrorism in South Africa, and we called it Apartheid regularly and we labeled the ANC a terrorist group.

Anyways, carry on. ~

[Kuya]

Well, I think "best ways" is up for debate there.

I also think that as a staunch opponent of Israel, you should probably realize by now that it's pretty hard to deal diplomatically with people whose response is "if you don't give us what we want we'll fucking kill you."

Pretty much irrelevant. The current government of Israel won't seriously deal with anyone since what it wants is something that no Palestinian can accept. That's why dealing with Israel at this state is pointless, they should just declare the State or threaten to do it, and have a different intermediary that's not the US deal with Israel.

The issue is not how hard it is for Israel to deal with big bad terrorists, the issue is that it's practically impossible for anyone to deal with Israel.

[Kuya]

The Egyptian Foreign Minister Nabil al-Araby has urged the United States to support the declaration of an independent Palestinian state.

The call comes after the reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah brokered last week by Egypt.

Both Israel and the US have said they will not deal with Hamas, and have until now opposed a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood

Both Israel and the US have insisted they will not deal with any side that includes Hamas, which they regard as a terrorist group.

Under President Hosni Mubarak Egypt used to take the same view, but the new government has moved quickly to distance itself from Israel, helping broker the Palestinian reconciliation deal last week.

This policy change is popular in Egypt, but it is not without risks.

It will be very unpopular in the US Congress, where the substantial annual aid package to Egypt must be approved.

Egypt is also seeking additional financial support from western and Gulf states, to help cover the immense cost to its economy of this year's upheavals.

It must weigh up the benefits of a more populist foreign policy against those very real and immediate needs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13256587

[Athas]

So apparently Hamas condemned the killing of Osama, describing him as a holy warrior or such?