Can you justify cheating in a poorly designed game?

[Cesaria]

Someone go look on the official forums and see if anyone's gone running back over to try to get the confessions on this thread banned yet!

I've used windower from the get-go... can't stand being locked out of my PC cos I flip out to do different things like crazy - hate full-screen games and the SE windowed mode doesn't work well, sorry guys but it was about 5 years too late and about 5 years too laggy. That's I think what made the rod for SE's back to be honest - the lack of a windowed mode, and the fact people played this for such extended periods of time LFP and the like, and so many quests required looking up on the Wiki and such like - that people got into windower, then into windower plugins and then into the other stuff available.

[Dathus]

Name: Ryan
Age: 24
Location: Canada
Play-style: Hardcore
Average time spent playing: 6+hrs

I've bought gil, fish botted, bot claimed, APRadar'd, Windower and, technically, Ventrilo(3rd party making game easier lulz?)

Reason: Gil I was unable/lazy to farm back in the day when 1m=$5 and I wanted to get to 75 ASAP. Fish botting/bot claiming was to put myself on level playing field for claiming, and fishing the regular way(I made several mil back in the day the regular way of fishing and was like (Ohai, easy gil).

Basically to make gil/claiming/finding mobs easier.

Also, I bought my gil/botted back when I played another character. I used to have a Mithra I played and deleted after a year or so of playing because I got tired of being hit on, and gave away everything. Afterwards, I came back and started from scratch on a different server and have been legit with Dathus ever since. Well, as legit as Windower/ApRadar is, I suppose.

[Ambir]

Of course it's justified. If I want to do something and I can't then it's clearly poor game design, and I'm justified in cheating to overcome it. It's only fair...

[Nevex]

Third party tools that make the game easier/less stressful for yourself without damaging other players (i.e. Windower, Spellcast etc.) -> white area.

Third party programs that directly hurt other players by wasting their time (i.e. claim bots) -> black area.

Everything else (gil buying, fish/craft botting, AP radar when Hagun ENM was worth doing, etc.) -> grey area.
This is the only area that is even worth debating. The other two are respectively "right" and "wrong", always.

[dejet]

Just going to add a little more info on why people cheat. It was in my old post but sorta hidden in a way. But I think its a big portion, so I will point it out.

When you play a game, you always play it the real way(one player games) FFXI and most MMOs repeat things 1000x over. It may be fun to do things over and over(its why we play old games still) but a lot of the time a second play around may very well lead to cheats. Think about Grand theft Auto. Who does not cheat after beating a game like that?

MMOs fall so hard on repeat killing/events that we as players find ways to do the things we enjoy rather then the time sink part.

We want to kill big ass dragons(and get gear) or whatever, and bots help us.

We like to have a lot of money, auto bots(fishing/fighting/everything else) get us the money when we might not have so much time.

We want to get to a area to do something, but its the 900th time we have walked a zone. GM-tools/pos hacking get us there faster.

For the most part its all to get to the part of the game we want to play. Its not so much we hate everything, its all falls into the 100th time around waiting to fight something blows, fighting the same lvl 10 mob for gil gets old... and so on.

I think this was very much the reason windower got so big and it was deemed ok for use. Most of us still awed at first time kills of PW/AV even though we knew they used windower as well as other things(lgm and such)

[Mafai]

Just going to add a little more info on why people cheat. It was in my old post but sorta hidden in a way. But I think its a big portion, so I will point it out.

When you play a game, you always play it the real way(one player games) FFXI and most MMOs repeat things 1000x over. It may be fun to do things over and over(its why we play old games still) but a lot of the time a second play around may very well lead to cheats. Think about Grand theft Auto. Who does not cheat after beating a game like that?

MMOs fall so hard on repeat killing/events that we as players find ways to do the things we enjoy rather then the time sink part.

We want to kill big ass dragons(and get gear) or whatever, and bots help us.

We like to have a lot of money, auto bots(fishing/fighting/everything else) get us the money when we might not have so much time.

We want to get to a area to do something, but its the 900th time we have walked a zone. GM-tools/pos hacking get us there faster.

For the most part its all to get to the part of the game we want to play. Its not so much we hate everything, its all falls into the 100th time around waiting to fight something blows, fighting the same lvl 10 mob for gil gets old... and so on.

I think this was very much the reason windower got so big and it was deemed ok for use. Most of us still awed at first time kills of PW/AV even though we knew they used windower as well as other things(lgm and such)

How was windower relevant in AV/PW kills?

Name: Mafai
Age: 23
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Play-style: Too much
Average time spent playing: Weekdays: 4hrish, Weekends: Too Much

What do you consider cheating in a video game? Anything used to gain an advantage outside the games intentions.

Do you think a cheater is the same as a griefer? Why or why not? No, griefing can be something minor like harassing. You do not need outside the game intervention to do this.


If you could make a scale with one end being the worst kind of cheating, ranging to the not as bad cheating, where would you place things?
Automation > Information Viewing

RMTing as cheating, either buying or selling.
To each their own, I've sold tons but frown upon people who buy. I would put totals earned at well over 10k including gil + bot sales.

I will add that I've used just about everything thats ever existed, from MrZone to packet bots. My original character was banned for salvage duping (which was an in game mechanic exploit). I still use a packet bot to claim (not often), but have discontinued use of anything I feel is detectable (flee, pos). Unless SE would implement some type of process scanning, they won't eliminate people using these tools.

[dejet]

90% of the players used windower/spellcast/bots to help. PW I did not really follow. but when people found out how to lock AV they used bots to lock him down. so that when he used a 2hr the short window was not missed.

[ronin sparthos]

Some general talking points:
What do you consider cheating in a video game?
Do you think a cheater is the same as a griefer? Why or why not?
If you could make a scale with one end being the worst kind of cheating, ranging to the not as bad cheating, where would you place things?
RMTing as cheating, either buying or selling.

I'll speak for myself and say without windower, I would not play FFXI at all. To me, the features in there such as scripts, plugins, etc. are all invaluable. How can you justify what you do?

Cheating in a video game is any use of outside assistance in order to make the process of completing the game easier. I frequently used walkthroughs when I played games because of my compulsion to miss nothing, especially in lengthy RPGs where things were often vague and so well-hidden that you wouldn't find somethinig unless you knew where to look. However, this mentality has started to change with online communities and MMOs that almost demand you access the web in order to be on top of the latest strategies, trends and playstyles.

For offline games, cheating - be that using the internet, inputting cheat codes or even hacking/sharking the game affects no one but yourself so really it just comes down to mindless fun. You do learn over time that too much cheating kills the challenge or fun of a game though. Gamesharking Pokes and cheating my ass off in RTS games taught me that.

Online games however are a whole other story. Cheating in an online game is largely to gain advantages over other people. If I were to make a scale for FFXI cheating it'd be something like:

Top tier:
Automation/Botting
Movement cheats
RMT/gilbuying/PL service

These are tools that deliberately designed to give such an advantage over others that you have no choice but to cave into the demands made by those who use such tools. The greatest example would be the XI era of kings/Sky. In the more recent era, the effects of being claimbotted has diminished with faster respawns but the idea remains the same.

Id consider most of the top tier tools as being used for obsessive reasons. Be that keeping up with the Joneses, satisfying some longing desire to be superior to others, to be cool amongst friends or simple obsession bordering on far worse. In any case the game is no longer fun, the ends always justify the means and everything is a chore. This is probably the point where you need to seriously quit an MMO. During the age of HNMs in FFXI, many people botted to keep up but at this point with things made so easy, top tier tools really have me questioning the thought processes of certain individuals.

Mid Tier
Spellcast
Apradar
Windower
Plugins

Mid-tier tools are overall a gray area. The game indeed has glaring flaws (to me) that make it incredibly difficult to play without some of the basic things that Windower provides. Windower is the laymans tool to overcome SEs ancient game as it provides just about everything you need to play the game at a passable level whereas tools like Spellcast go above and beyond, optimizing play and seriously bordering on top-tier cheats.

How far you go is really your choice. Personally Id reccomend Windower to everyone with the basic utility plugins but I can respect if you want to be a purist.

Low Tier
Forums
Walkthroughs
Guides
Terrain Advantages

These largely harm no one and have become accepted by the community because by and large these are benign. Games are being developed with the idea that you use these tools because it'd be impossible otherwise to enjoy yourself. Things like avoiding AOEs using terrains to some are considered "cheating" but honestly I feel that's more player inginuity.

[Mici]

Name: Micitan
Age: 25
Place: Texas
Play style: As much as I can
Play Time: Me or the tools? Me 10hrs/week not, 4 years ago 70+/week easy
Tools, 80+?

I have been playing since day one and have used every tool I could find, down to the simple scripts that would fish for you when it was just /fish.....enter
I have used windower for as long as I can remember. Used APradar to camp countless NM. Never camped HNM really, was a small bit with some middle eastern guys. POS hacks, mostly to claim NMs and get through COP in the first week it was out. Fishing bots of all damn kinds. Crafting bots to make Holy water for NPC and Sairui-ran. Nav bots to make long runs for me. Magic skill up bots, fuck summoner. Farming bots for Tree cuttings. If there is a way to make something easier, I will with out a single thought.
I cheat in college too.

How do I justify it? It's a game, and one I pay for. Why do all this work when there is a tool to do it for me? I will do anything I can to make what time I have on the game more fun. If I could make it so I got a relic tomorrow, I would. Hell, if I could get everyone one, I would. And I have never payed anything more than my monthly fee, no gil, bots, or "donations".

[NynJa]

90% of the players used windower/spellcast/bots to help. PW I did not really follow. but when people found out how to lock AV they used bots to lock him down. so that when he used a 2hr the short window was not missed.

Thats also a byproduct of shitty NA latency though. Oh who am I kidding? JP's are just so damn quick they were all able to stun Frog Song via StunWS, and every NA couldnt cuz theyre fat lazy and slow, it has nothing to do with latency...yeah, thats a very full of shit story sage sundi. A friend of mine (who for the record plays 100% legit, full screen and all for fear of embedded keyloggers) couldnt pull off the Leg Sweep stuns, then went to Japan for business and magically was able to land those same Leg Sweep stuns, and upon returning to NA, he couldnt.

[dejet]

Thats also a byproduct of shitty NA latency though. Oh who am I kidding? JP's are just so damn quick they were all able to stun Frog Song via StunWS, and every NA couldnt cuz theyre fat lazy and slow, it has nothing to do with latency...yeah, thats a very full of shit story sage sundi. A friend of mine (who for the record plays 100% legit, full screen and all for fear of embedded keyloggers) couldnt pull off the Leg Sweep stuns, then went to Japan for business and magically was able to land those same Leg Sweep stuns, and upon returning to NA, he couldnt.

im not fighting with you. lol go back to the first page and read my post's. Iv used everything under the sun. ~_~

[NynJa]

I wasnt trying to fight, I was just saying if SE's shit were ideally balanced at both ends, it wouldnt require the need of additional tools just to be able to get something done. I'm not justifying using onevent scripts, but if there are battle tactics that 2/3 (JP can, EU NA cant) of the playerbase cant properly counter simply because they dont live in Japan with a 5-30 ping...what other alternatives are there?

[Ksandra]

Name:
Age:
Location:
Play-style:
Average time spent playing:


Some general talking points:
What do you consider cheating in a video game?
Do you think a cheater is the same as a griefer? Why or why not?
If you could make a scale with one end being the worst kind of cheating, ranging to the not as bad cheating, where would you place things?
RMTing as cheating, either buying or selling.

quoted so I don't have to keep switching to see questions.

Katie
31 (shutup)
San Diego, CA
Casual~semi hardcore
4 hours weekdays 10+ weekends (on days I actually play)

I considered myself in between casual and semi-hardcore only because if I have the time, I'm on the game and pretty focused. However, it's very easy for me to not play (ie, back in the day I would ditch hanging out with friends, but now I'm always going out with them). IRL def takes priority for me.


I have never bought gil (or currency in any game). It wasn't until about maybe '07 or '08 that I actually used windower. Up until that point I was strictly a ps2 user, and used my computer just to look up stuff. Once I started using the pc instead I got windower for dual boxing, but never used addons until last year lol. Only addons I've limited myself to are recast/yarnball/blinkmenot. First two, just because I admit I've gotten lazy, the last because I started playing whm and wanted to punch people without it.

For your talking points:

I still and have always considered "cheating" to be defined as actions/programs/etc. that are against the game's intent or circumvent anything about the actual game that isn't sanctioned by the developers. I remain satisfied in this definition because it takes out subjectivity. Does this make windower a cheat? Kinda, for sure in the earlier years because of SE's comments about it. Now, it seems like they don't care, so it's come off of the "cheat status". However, even if it is a cheat, I'd still use it, because I just don't care about getting punished over it.

As to cheating vs. griefing I don't understand you wanting to ask it. Even wiki defines griefing as "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game that deliberately irritates and harasses other players."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

A griefer is someone who harasses others (an ffxi example would be bsts who used to mpk people for fun). Of course a griefer could use cheats to grief, but it's not like a one or the other situation. A griefer wants to piss people off, cheaters usually are in to make things easier on themselves.

Range of cheating would be minor: asthetic changes (ie. reconfiguring the display on your screen). major: not having to do anything but hit 1 button to start a script and accomplish everything.

RMT is cheating per my definition above. beleve sony had some weird thing for EQ where they did rmting on their own site (maybe it was a korean mmo though and I'm getting confused, so sorry if I'm wrong). then it would not be cheating because the company is regulating it, and giving it's ok.

[fndragon]

Name: Fndragon
Age: 32
Location: Pennsylvania
Play-style: hardcore
Average time spent playing: /playtime reports around 700 days online. Been playing since 2004.

What do you consider cheating in a video game?

Cheating in a video game is playing the game in a manner not intended by the developer. As a software developer myself, this falls into two categories: Bug exploitation, and Third-party tools. Ideally they should be handled differently, with bug exploitation less severely repremanded. Also, cheating in a multplayer game is, in my mind, a vastly different subject than cheating in a single player game, as other people are affected in the former.

Do you think a cheater is the same as a griefer? Why or why not?

They're two ends of the spectrum. Cheaters mainly concern themselves with making them feel good, or gain more items/wealth/power/etc. Griefers concern is to make someone else feel miserable. Sometimes the two coexist in a situation, with a cheater making themselves feel good by griefing someone, but they're not mutually exclusive.

If you could make a scale with one end being the worst kind of cheating, ranging to the not as bad cheating, where would you place things?

I'm not so sure an enumerated list would help. What categories of cheating would you recommend? I would differentiate "password logger", "third-party automation tool (claiming, fishing, xping)", "RMT" in that order from worst to least. After some thought below I would put "Wiki research" and "parsing" at the very end, if you consider them cheating.

RMTing as cheating, either buying or selling.

Yes. Why would you not think that "Paying real money for virtual items and accounts" is cheating? That's like bribing politicians and asking if it's your fault that grassroots movements take too long to form around your issue.

I'll speak for myself and say without windower, I would not play FFXI at all. To me, the features in there such as scripts, plugins, etc. are all invaluable. How can you justify what you do?

I do not cheat. Here comes a rant. I used to be in a linkshell with Wiccaan, one of the developers of Windower. In a dramatic GBCW, he posted the windower source code at one point and time; It has since been purged from the internet at large. I downloaded this source code, and there were several unreleased modules inside the source tree, specifically for automated claiming of notorious monsters. I have an image of this here. Now, knowing that the functionality for such a tool is there, can you honestly defend Windower as being harmless? That's harmless the same way that a gun is harmless without any bullets as you walk past a bullet store. Automation is a very very slippery slope, and I know precisely how slippery that is, being a software programmer myself.

I also used to be a systems operator for a Counter-Strike server farm. I can tell you the effect that hackers have on other multiplayer games. It is a ravenous effect, and can only through a concerted effort of the community be stamped out. I also looked into these hacking tools myself, and honestly, I've found that games are no longer fun when the competition is removed through the use of cheats, hacks, and third party tools. Loading up an aimbot client, walking onto a server, talking shit and "winning" until a mod gets online -- I just don't get the fun factor. The most enjoyment of the game, any game, is when you accomplish a task and have the satisfaction that goes with it. There is no satisfaction for me in having any accomplishment given to me by cheating. Here is an image of something I "whipped up" for Diablo 2. After doing this, I was discouraged from playing the game anymore, since the challenge was not there, and for me, there is no joy in accomplishment without challenge.

So, personally, I justify what I do by the following. I don't cheat. I don't tolerate cheating. I have been in linkshells with people who cheat, and have moved on without doing any of it myself, and trying to actively discourage it in people who do profess to cheating. I have mastered all 20 jobs to level 90, fully meritted all of them, gotten Maat's Cap, and have finished one Empyrian Weapon (Verethragna). FFXIAH currently says that I'm #3 for my server (which is merging soon!). I also have a full time job, a wife, a house, and a rather successful social life. All this without cheating once. Well, ok, I *DID* get called in for using kparser once. Seriously. I honestly don't think that using a tool solely for information (such as using the wiki, or using a parser for self-analysis) is cheating, but I did get called to GM jail for that action, and I have since stopped using it. I don't use Windower, at least not since the official windowed mode started working, and I don't see a need to use it at all. Actually yeah, I will admit to using Windower for its namesake purpose, but that's all.

[Raen Ryong]

Name: Tom
Age: 21
Location: England!
Play-style: Sometimes hardcore, sometimes casual, sometimes nonexistant
Average time spent playing: 10hrs/day sometimes, typically 3hrs/day and sometimes 0. Depends on my mood/schedule/motivation/other things to do.

I've never bought or sold gil, used Windower/Apradar since '07 and Spellcast for the last year or so. Used NASA when in HNM scene along with entire LS at the time and more recently been using XiClaim (last month-2 months) after endless frustration with the countless hordes of JPs at every Abyssea NM ever.

Windower I don't really see a problem with. Spellcast/Apradar is advantageous and I won't try to defend that. My botting is most definitely a dick move (though I don't do it all that much) and is entirely born of my own selfishness. If I were to justify it, I would say that many people use bots nowadays, and doing this simply levels the playing field. While this may be true, I would be lying if this is my overall motivation: I do it because I want the advantage especially over the JP hordes. I am a generally moral person irl and am fully aware that I am being "immoral" here.

As for things like pos hacks, flee hacks, etc - as long as they don't affect other people I don't care. Flee hacking so you don't spend 15 mins running across a zone? No big deal. Flee hacking an NM around because you can't kill it without in front of capable people who can kill it without cheating? Pretty lame.

Cheating can be griefing but griefing isn't necessarily cheating.

[Jex]

I've never bought or sold gil, used Windower/Apradar since '07 and Spellcast for the last year or so. Used NASA when in HNM scene along with entire LS at the time and more recently been using XiClaim (last month-2 months) after endless frustration with the countless hordes of JPs at every Abyssea NM ever.

As for things like pos hacks, flee hacks, etc - as long as they don't affect other people I don't care. Flee hacking so you don't spend 15 mins running across a zone? No big deal. Flee hacking an NM around because you can't kill it without in front of capable people who can kill it without cheating? Pretty lame.

Cheating can be griefing but griefing isn't necessarily cheating.

This^^

People still think its cool to say "omg you bot in lolabyssea?" clearly you're not on a server where fucking random JP bring an ally (sometimes 2 allys of different groups) to NM's and are on fucking around the clock no matter what time of day. It just evens the playing field imo.

As for as flee hacks, I use clipper (Used to use speeder till it broke) why? There is no reason I should get stuck because some random afk faggot is in my way. Have you tried to walk to the abyssea NPC during prime time or when ppl afk in-front of the mog house? The shit is ridiculous GM tool (Tool used so you can walk through people and NPC's) is one of the best shit ever, I used to play on PS2 and I would die sometimes kiting something because some random faggot was in the way. Suck less and get a PC?™ maybe, even then its still retarded.

As for flee hacking I agree walking normal speed to get somewhere is stupid now days... I fucking wish I had flee hacks back in the day running from bastok to dunes and having to run back because you fucked up and set your home point at bastok is fucking stupid and I would not wish that on anyone. As for your point on flee hacking to hold something Raen I agree to an extent

example:
Flee hacking a mob because you suck and take 45 min w/ 7 people while struggling to live, that I can kill faster with 3 is retarded.

Flee hacking a mob because you solo claimed KB (back when it was important) and you're waiting on your LS to get in to kill is fine.

Edit:
programs I use day to day: Clipper,Winodwer/pluggins. I honestly turn on clipper before even hitting the character select screen.
Situational programs: XI claim

[mactabilis]

Name: adam
Age: 23
Location: MI
Play-style: somewhere between now
Average time spent playing: 2-3hrs, few days a week

I use windower and basic plugins like tparty, logger, distance, spellcast. They could be considered cheating but because i played for years on ps2 without them, i don't lose sleep over it. They simply make the game more tolerable. In the past, i sold several thousands of $ in gil/accounts (my own, would never steal) and very briefly before the mass bans started, flee/pos. I don't really regret doing these things because it generally didn't remotely affect others in game and i could care less about some corporate tos. Sure, you can argue indirectly it did, whatever. I never afk camped shit like ulli to sell for usd, or stole accounts, or botted kings...until every single LS on our server was doing it and it was causing us to lose claim for a month straight.

If the game wasn't "poorly designed" as relates to 3PP, there wouldn't be a use for things like Light Luggage. Likewise, shit like taking a kited NM at 1% that for some reason went unclaimed, might not be cheating but it's a garbage action. That's the kind of shit that makes ppl quit playing, being on the receiving end of that, not the fact i can autopass dyna coins. So i guess on the spectrum i would argue that these things can be justified one way or another, so long as they don't harm others.

[antihero]

Name: Rob
Age: 22
Location: Atlanta
Play-style: Haijin
Average time spent playing: 16 hours a day, sometimes more

dating back to AC tools (fishbotting) and fast fingers (claimbotting) in early-mid 2004 I used everything under the sun until I sold my account in february of 2010, suspended once for fleetool in sea in late 2005, jailed numerous times for dumb shit, never banned, 100% justified. why does this thread feel more like a confessional than research

[Colenzo]

because its ffxi

[Cymmina]

Name: "Chris"
Age: 34
Location: Canada
Playstyle: Powergamer
Average playtime: currently 3-4 hours during the week, most of the day on weekends

I was introduced to MMoGs in 2000 with Ultima Online. Client enhancements were practically nonexistant, and a number of things about it were clunky and difficult to do. Like FFXI, you were restricted by the number of keys you could have bound to a macro (you could use alpha-numeric keys, but not ins/del/home/end/etc.).

There were 2 major Windower like applications: UOE (UO Extreme) and UOA (UO Assist). UO had a short lived program where 3rd party developers could register their app to be sanctioned and no longer considered cheating. UOA was sanctioned but cost $10; UOE was not sanctioned but free. I admit, I used UOE. I knew it was cheating, but it let me bind those extra keys that I wanted. It also let you delete walls from the client and see invisible people, but I didn't use any of that kind of stuff.

I also admit to unattended macroing. The skill gain system was really messed up when I started playing. If a skill was popular, it took longer to skillup. There's 2 types of skills: ones with difficulty checks (think combat skills) and ones without (think healing magic on players). Skills without difficulty checks took an absurdly long time to raise once you hit the 90s (100 was the cap). So absurd, people would macro unattended overnight and be ecstatic that they gained .1 skill. I don't know how they expected people to do this sort of thing through normal game play.

Third party apps shape games, and not always in a bad way. FFXI didn't always have an autosort option, but it does now.