Osama bin Laden is dead

[Eleven19]

I don't really get why it matters? The backlash of getting caught in a lie this big wouldn't warrant lying about his death first of all. Second, there are still going to be people who don't believe it, which will just create another endless cycle of bullshit. Lastly, are you really going to sleep better at night after having seen a picture of his dead body? I doubt it, the guy hasn't been on anyones mind in the past 5 years but now all of a sudden it's a big deal whether he's truly dead or not?

That bit there is why I have little doubt that he's dead. It just doesn't make any sense to me otherwise. Unless he pulls a Tupac in a year I think this is the real deal.

[Dimmauk]

Its bad for pakistan cause thier meal ticket is dead. It feels like that was the reason they never said where he was. Either they were really fucking dumb and didnt know, or they were lying.

[Tekki]

pics of dead at compound, after us pulled out

tried to pull pics straight off reuters but the page is down... probably because of traffic.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/photos-show...194758961.html

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Photographs acquired by Reuters and taken about an hour after the U.S. assault on Osama bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad in Pakistan show three dead men lying in pools of blood, but no weapons.
The photos, taken by a Pakistani security official who entered the compound after the early morning raid on Monday, show two men dressed in traditional Pakistani garb and one in a t-shirt, with blood streaming from their ears, noses and mouths.
The official, who wished to remain anonymous, sold the pictures to Reuters.
None of the men looked like bin Laden. President Barack Obama decided not to release photos of his body because it could have incited violence and used as an al Qaeda propaganda tool, the White House said on Wednesday.
Based on the time-stamps on the pictures, the earliest one was dated May 2, 2:30 a.m., approximately an hour after the completion of the raid in which bin Laden was killed.
Other photos, taken hours later at between 5:21 a.m. and 6:43 a.m. show the outside of the trash-strewn compound and the wreckage of the helicopter the United States abandoned. The tail assembly is unusual, and could indicate some kind of previously unknown stealth capability.
Reuters is confident of the authenticity of the purchased images because details in the photos appear to show a wrecked helicopter from the assault, matching details from photos taken independently on Monday.
U.S. forces lost a helicopter in the raid due to a mechanical problem and later destroyed it.
The pictures are also taken in sequence and are all the same size in pixels, indicating they have not been tampered with. The time and date in the photos as recorded in the digital file's metadata match lighting conditions for the area as well as the time and date imprinted on the image itself.
The close-cropped pictures do not show any weapons on the dead men, but the photos are taken in medium close-up and often crop out the men's hands and arms.
One photo shows a computer cable and what looks like a child's plastic green and orange water pistol lying under the right shoulder of one of the dead men. A large pool of blood has formed under his head.
A second shows another man with a streak of blood running from his nose across his right cheek and a large band of blood across his chest.
A third man, in a T-shirt, is on his back in a large pool of blood which appears to be from a head wound.
U.S. acknowledgment on Tuesday that bin Laden was unarmed when shot dead had raised accusations Washington had violated international law. The exact circumstances of his death remained unclear and could yet fuel controversy, especially in the Muslim world.
Pakistan faced national embarrassment, a leading Islamabad newspaper said, in explaining how the world's most-wanted man was able to live for years in the military garrison town of Abbottabad, just north of the capital.
Pakistan blamed worldwide intelligence lapses for a failure to detect bin Laden, while Washington worked to establish whether its ally had sheltered the al Qaeda leader, which Islamabad vehemently denies.
(Writing by Chris Allbritton; Editing by Jon Boyle)

Spoiler: show

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/d9f...2_BINLADEN.JPG

is that a squirt gun?!

[NiggaFromHarlem]

What is the alternative narrative? Conspiracy theories? The www.gore.com narrative?

I'm referring to the initial account of the raid given by the Obama administration (specifically, John Brennan). They made it sound like bin Laden put up a serious armed resistance, and that bin Laden was killed during a firefight in which he used a woman as a human shield.

Later, the administration changed the story to say that bin Laden was in fact not armed, and that the woman was NOT used as a human shield (but instead, according to the later narrative given by Jay Carney, a woman rushed the U.S. forces on her own account). Carney continues to insist that bin Laden was actively resisting, yet he has completely refused to give any account on the nature of this resistance, even while admitting that he knows of no weapons involved..

Today, there are reports alleging that Pakistani authorities found no arms or explosives in the compound (of course, it could be the case that these were confiscated by U.S. forces).

This doesn't have anything to do with alleged conspiracy theories. To answer your question, the alternative narrative is a set of factual statements which are consistent and can be substantiated by evidence. So far this week, quite a large deal of what was initially released has later been contradicted by both U.S. and Pakistani officials.

[Plow]

That's because every news agency is sitting around guessing hoping in the end they can be like "see we were the ones that were right!"

Because in the end, nobody's going to give a shit about all the ones that were wrong, let alone hold anyone in the media accountable for spreading misinformation.

[NiggaFromHarlem]

I'm not sure if I understand your post completely, but it would seem to me that it was the administration which was initially spreading misinformation (either intentionally or accidentally). It's not so much the news agencies which are contradicting the initial claims, but instead it has mainly been members of the President's administration or their counterparts in Pakistan.

[Plow]

So what you're saying is that you got all your news reports with all this conflicting information directly from white house staff?

[NiggaFromHarlem]

The initial reports quote senior WH advisers, specifically John Brennan (if there is any guy who should know what's going on, it's him, which is why he was one of the first people to talk to reporters). As for the conflicting information, this has mainly arisen out of the WH press conferences given on Monday and Tuesday. The information given on Monday conflicted somewhat with the information given Sunday night/early Monday morning, and the information given on Tuesday conflicted with some of the information given in the press conference on Monday. Carney didn't give an update on the raid today, but instead focused on the picture bullshit.

So... yes, more or less directly from senior staffers of the white house and officials in other departments.

[Plow]

So, do you have even a single example of him contradicting himself?

By which I mean him, not one media outlet claiming he said one thing and another saying he said something different?

[NiggaFromHarlem]

So, do you have even a single example of him contradicting himself?

By which I mean him, not one media outlet claiming he said one thing and another saying he said something different?

Sure.

During Monday's WH press conference, after Brennan takes over for Carney (around 13 minutes in):

A reporter says: "You said that Osama bin Laden was actually involved in the firefight [referring to earlier reports by officials]. We had --- it has been reported he reached for a weapon. Did he get his hands on a gun and did he fire himself?"

Brennan responds with: "He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house through his end. And whether not not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don't know"

Compare this with Tuesday's press conference where the following took place (around 6 minutes in):

Reporter: "Did he have any weapon [referring to bin Laden]"

Carney: "He was not armed is what I understand to be true."

edit: To get a full view of what I'm talking about you should probably read some of the initial reports, along with the Q&A on Monday and the followup press conference on Tuesday with Carney. You can find the WH press conferences on cspan.org.

[Xno Kappa]

It was a ridiculously secretive covert operation. Why the fuck would anyone expect an accurate account of what happened hours after the fact? Its doubtful the team involved has even debriefed the Obama administration accordingly yet.

People are just looking to bitch just to bitch.

[Plow]

Sure.

During Monday's WH press conference, after Brennan takes over for Carney (around 13 minutes in):

A reporter says: "You said that Osama bin Laden was actually involved in the firefight [referring to earlier reports by officials]. We had --- it has been reported he reached for a weapon. Did he get his hands on a gun and did he fire himself?"

Brennan responds with: "He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house through his end. And whether not not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don't know"

Compare this with Tuesday's press conference where the following took place (around 6 minutes in):

Reporter: "Did he have any weapon [referring to bin Laden]"

Carney: "He was not armed is what I understand to be true."

edit: To get a full view of what I'm talking about you should probably read some of the initial reports, along with the Q&A on Monday and the followup press conference on Tuesday with Carney. You can find the WH press conferences on cspan.org.

I see no contradiction.

If you take "he was engaged in a firefight," followed directly by "I don't know if he actually had a weapon or shot" to mean "dude had a gun and was shooting at shit," then sure. But, again, that's exactly what I'm saying, people have been making (and reporting) their own conclusions from the start.

It's the same deal with the woman getting killed vs his wife thing.

All he said was that bin Laden's being in this nice house and blah blah hiding behind women to use as shields reflected on his true persona. People took that to mean Osama himself literally used his wife as a human shield. Then people tried to say there were contradictions because Osama's wife apparently charged and got shot in the leg... and those same people don't seem to realize that they're also reporting on the fact that a different woman was used by a different person as a human shield, and they were both killed... which is what the white house has said all along.

[NiggaFromHarlem]

[edit] this was a reply to Hirokei

I don't think so. Whether or not bin Laden had a weapon and whether or not he was resisting when he was shot to death sounds like a pretty important detail to fuck up. To me it seems unacceptable to say "oh, well it's a covert operation, so it's okay to spread initial statements which vary wildly from what the truth actually is." As I see it, this is a pretty big communication problem for the administration, demonstrating what may be a serious lack of credibility.

People are bitching for accurate information, not just bitching to bitch (obviously the exceptions include people like Palin and Rush, etc.)

[NiggaFromHarlem]

I see no contradiction.

If you take "he was engaged in a firefight," followed directly by "I don't know if he actually had a weapon or shot" to mean "dude had a gun and was shooting at shit," then sure. But, again, that's exactly what I'm saying, people have been making (and reporting) their own conclusions from the start.

It's the same deal with the woman getting killed vs his wife thing.

All he said was that bin Laden's being in this nice house and blah blah hiding behind women to use as shields reflected on his true persona. People took that to mean Osama himself literally used his wife as a human shield. Then people tried to say there were contradictions because Osama's wife apparently charged and got shot in the leg... and those same people don't seem to realize that they're also reporting on the fact that a different woman was used by a different person as a human shield, and they were both killed... which is what the white house has said all along.

There are several problems with this:

You say Brennan qualified his statement by saying "I don't know if he actually had a weapon or shot." Did you read what I wrote? Brennan didn't say that, he said this: "And whether not not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don't know." Brennan was responding to an earlier report (by him), that bin Laden was personally involved in the firefight.

This notion that bin Laden was armed seems contrary to the narrative given the next day, Carney even admits to some misstatements in the beginning of the press conference.

Referring to the wife, you say "they were both killed [the women]... which is what the white house has said all along."

No, actually, it's not. During Tuesday's press conference, at around 4 minutes in, Carney very clearly says: "In the room with bin Laden, bin Laden's wife rushed the US assaulter and was shot in the leg, but not killed."

You seem to have your facts wrong.

[quannum]

nitpicking will surely get people to realize that you were right all along.

[NiggaFromHarlem]

I don't think what I did is nitpicking. Plow altered the quote which made it seem like Brennan was saying something nearly completely different from what he actually said. As for the part about the dead women, Plow stated it as if this has been some concrete position of the White House, which is clearly not the case... I don't see how pointing out that someone is actually NOT dead is nitpicking.

[Kurokikaze]

I still fail to see how or why it matters? The dude is still dead.

[Karasu]

Mock up of the stealth helicopter that crashed. Looks kinda cool.

Spoiler: show

http://img0.uploadhouse.com/fileuplo...7ca99a53b4.jpg

And here is a piece of the tail that wasn't blown up.

Spoiler: show

http://img9.uploadhouse.com/fileuplo...724b9e8b66.jpg

[Dimmauk]

[Plow]

There are several problems with this:

You say Brennan qualified his statement by saying "I don't know if he actually had a weapon or shot." Did you read what I wrote? Brennan didn't say that, he said this: "And whether not not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don't know." Brennan was responding to an earlier report (by him), that bin Laden was personally involved in the firefight.

This notion that bin Laden was armed seems contrary to the narrative given the next day, Carney even admits to some misstatements in the beginning of the press conference.

The notion that bin Laden was armed is something you're (mis)construing from the statement that he was involved in a firefight.

Again, I've seen nothing official stating, and I can't even find any news agencies having reported at any point that Osama was actually armed.

Referring to the wife, you say "they were both killed [the women]... which is what the white house has said all along."

No, actually, it's not. During Tuesday's press conference, at around 4 minutes in, Carney very clearly says: "In the room with bin Laden, bin Laden's wife rushed the US assaulter and was shot in the leg, but not killed."

You seem to have your facts wrong.

By "they were both killed" I'm referring to the woman that was used as a shield, and the man using her as a shield. I don't believe anyone official has ever stated that bin Laden's wife was killed.