[dev1007]Voidwatch Emerges

[Siatdiat]

Hmm, your signature saying you hate wow style ffxi.... pretty sure I cant duo endgame in wow with a mule account! Regardless, I think your post ultimately tells me 2 things:

1. You are pursuing an associates degree at a community college and think you using the word "empirically" will impress people.

2. You base your ego off of video game achievements in the online world and are angry you don't have a proper ruler to measure your dick with atm.

[Charismatic]

Except that virtually all of the content I listed, with the exception of the world spawns, were hardly time consuming. Dynamis would be the longest, capping at around 3.5 hrs, something plenty of people are easily able to commit to for Abyssea. SE tried to offer a variety of content in which rewards were scaled according to both difficulty and accessibility of the content. However lots of content ended up neglected because people ultimately hone in on drop quality. Top end players wouldn't waste their time on new content when it didn't offer any drops useful for them, lower end players would sulk about how whatever they got from X still didn't beat Adaberk.

Imagine if SE introduced a fight that was easily accessible (in terms of being able to try the challenge) and had top of the line rewards... but was stupidly ridiculously difficult to complete. I guarantee you that the bitching would shift from complaints about "accessibility" to how it was "too difficult." It's all about gear, more specifically, the best gear. Abyssea isn't popular for any reason besides the fact that there's a shitton of people that like having top of the line gear even if they aren't top of the line players. Bitching about "accessibility of content" has never been about the redundancy, time commitment, or annoyance of the pre-fight rituals -- it's about the "accessibility of gear" whether or not I can get it.

Kings remained a contentious issue for as long as they did, despite a dearth of alternative content, because a large number of people who didn't have an Adaberk/Ridill/Dramatica just couldn't deal with not being able to get one and nothing ever replacing them.

But grievances about where one lies on the curve is a different matter from whether or not the curve should exist at all. So give me an affirmative reason why top end gear should be accessible rather than exclusive.

Any justification for accessibility ultimately lies on gear not mattering. "They're just pixels, why should people have to do X Y and Z to get them?" But if gear doesn't matter, one can make just as good of a case for exclusivity. "If gear doesn't matter, why does one need it to play the game or have fun?"

So long as gear matters, and I think empirically it's been shown that it does, then there is a very good reason for exclusivity. It becomes clear once you understand video games and gear in the abstract.

Games, video games included, are fun because our brains are hard-wired to find enjoyment in the mastery of tasks/acquisition of skill. Cognitive science tells us that our brains are likely wired this way for the evolutionary purpose of encouraging the acquisition and refinement of beneficial survival skills. For the most part, it doesn't matter what the actual task is or what value the skill has. That's why video games are fun despite the fact that they have no real world application at all. The is one caveat to this: challenge/mastery. When mastery is not a factor, or when tasks have no challenge, tasks are not fun. This is why we don't care for mundane tasks like taking out the trash.

Gear is supposed to be a reward in recognition for mastery. Completion of a certain task signifies a level of mastery that entitles you to a certain reward. Is it coming together now?

Now here's where exclusivity comes into place: mastery is relative. We value the acquisition of skills and the mastery of skills, but we judge the quality of our skills and the degree of our mastery through comparison. Exclusivity of gear helps establish relativity of mastery.

So long as gear is correlated with completion of certain tasks and the difficulty of those tasks are known, it's a shortcut to knowing what that player is capable of. Ever made fun of a WAR meeling in full AF2? You're establishing the relativity of his skill based on his lack of substantial rewards.

It happens post Abyssea too, like people in full Teal or full Perle. The problem is that there are so few people unable to complete the top level task that mastery level is non-existent. You either have people geared to the teeth or absolute retard. The middle has been eliminated. Even people who like Abyssea acknowledge it is far far far easier.



I'm not going to argue that old XI tracked drops perfectly. There was definitely over-inclusiveness by nature of the fact it's an MMO. You only have to be good enough such that a group that can do the task doesn't kick you out, not good enough such that a group comprised of exactly your mean skill level could do the task.

And one could argue there was over-exclusiveness to a point. There are definitely many skilled people who could have succeeded at the HNMLS stage but did not for whatever reason.

But are you seriously going to argue that Abyssea is any better? There were shitty relic holders to be sure, but do you really think the mean skill level between relic holders and Empyrean holders is comparable?

I could list thousands of reasons why not, but the most glaring obvious reason why Abyssea has made the connection between gear and mastery less relevant is the existence of Brew. Brew was probably envisioned as a compromise on skill for effort for who put in an EXTREME amount so that they could eventually do something solo (i.e. think of the person who wants to be able to get Kings gear but can only play 2 hours a day but would dedicate all that time to farming if it meant being able to get it). Then they shortsightedly made it cheaper. You don't even have to be good enough to get access to Shinryu, you can pay/leech your way up to him then pay/leech your way through him, then start the gameshark hijinks yourself. Anything that stands in your way, lack of skill included, can be fixed all for 200k cruor. HOW ACCESSIBLE!

I'm willing to tolerate old XI's margin of error not only because it was far less than Abyssea's but also because at the end of the day effort and skill together should count for more than just one without the other. Michael Jordan wasn't the greatest simply because he was talented, it's because he squeezed every ounce of result possible out of his innate talents and toiled year after year until he sat alone atop.

Moreover as a game that exists in the real world, you have to deal with spillover from the real world. And sometimes the real world isn't perfectly fair and we have to do the best with what we have. It sucks if you can't put in the time to play the game to succeed at the highest levels, but in the end those who put in the hours actually did put in the hours, shouldn't they get something for that? I'd rather have a game in which some people have to accept not being on top, rather than some terrible program running on my other screen where everyone with an IQ above a rock is identical while I watch YouTube

Not even going to read this post but I'm just going to tell you that old school FFXI was only about who you could get in with, not about your skill. Some of the worst players I've ever known were some of the best geared ones. Gear had fuck all to do with skill unless that shit was from PW or something... don't try to feed people on BG that bullshit. We know better.

[Lovex]

Hmm, your signature saying you hate wow style ffxi.... pretty sure I cant duo endgame in wow with a mule account! Regardless, I think your post ultimately tells me 2 things:

1. You are pursuing an associates degree at a community college and think you using the word "empirically" will impress people.
2. You base your ego off of video game achievements in the online world and are angry you don't have a proper ruler to measure your dick with atm.

He actually worded it very well. He is right as well.

I've said this a thousand times over and over. Abyssea was needed and wanted, but I think it's offered more negative than good for the reason he listed.

A game where everyone is equal, while encouraging people to suck, isn't fun. Now, voidwatch/new dynamis is a step in the right direction so i'll give them that. However, Greds post intelligentally highlights why FFXI needs a line between exclusiveness and accessability. Lyall said in the official BG forums thread that dynamis,einherjar,salvage etc were not casual events, I totally disagree but that's my opinion.

Do I like Abyssea? I did, but I also quit because of it. What was so bad about old ffxi? The best gear shouldn't revolve around one week free spawns. That is unreasonable and HNMs were the only thing uncasual about FFXIs old endgame. Sure, you needed more people and that's sometimes the excuse people use for labeling it not accessable, but that's kinda bs. How many dynamis/salvage/limbus/sea shells existed outside HNMs? A crap load. Were all those people uncasual? No. Those were casuals who didn't want to do HNMs.

I'm sorry if this sounds like ass kissing but anyone remember excellence/demo/volume type shells? Sure, they did HNMs round the clock and probably botted. Even I myself, don't like failure, But lets not forget what else those groups/shells did for the game. Those players and shells set the standard not because they were just HNM shells, they were incredibly skilled and had amazing players. Do you really think the average player deserves the same stuff as players like stan,kiryschy,failure etc? No. Those players are very talented and they deserve to have the best and be seen as exclusive. I'm sorry it's true. I will never accomplish some of the things a lot of the people in those shells did, but I admire a good player who has the gear to back it up and i'm not jealous or crying about stuff in a game I can't do.

You want to know why I couldn't do some of the things players like that did? It's not because of FFXI or SE. It's because 1, I dont have the time, patience or knowledge or willingness to learn or be as good. It was nice back in the day to have players or shell to look up too.

Who made it a habit to always check Endgame linkshell sites for news on kiills/accomplishments? I did that. I thought it was cool reading about all the best shells. What do players look up too now?

FFXI should always have some exclusivity for the absolute most dedicated, talented players. I am comfortable not having the best. I can get great gear with dedication and time and I have fun knowing im making progress to my goals. I'm personally someone who likes reaching for what seems the impossible. I like knowing im eally earning my gears by putting forth not just time, but effort with my skill.

I hate whiners and theres something really irritating about a bunch of people crying and whining about wanting things. You shouldn't be justified to get the best gears because you pay a fee to play. Bringing up their irl and schedules and stuff is lame. Although the line between reasonable and unreasonable was crossed in the past, the game is too left sided now. Its a 180 and that is not good.

I'm someone who, when i want something, i go out and earn it. I find that same procress in game fufilling and entertaining. It gives you a strong sense of accomplishment. That strong sense is gone and the same famous players and shells that DEFINED endgame and shaped the endgame community through vast testing and knowledge, is pretty much gone. I miss the days those groups were on top. There are def things I don't miss, but the things I do miss trumps it.

People can say "those shells are still on top" etc etc, granted it's true, the same groups are. The difference is though, the top has been shaved far far down to point where the content just doesn't seem nearly as rewarding or fufilling anymore. That strong sense of accomplishment is gone.

Voidwatch and new dyna is a step in the fight direction of a difficulty scale. But the reward scale is still epic fail. Relics still suck and voidwatch gear is sidegrades for AF3. The thing thats funny, is that the same groups that couldn't handle NMs in abyssea probably will fail epically at new dyna xarc, farming relic consistantly and killing voidwatch NMs.

Thing is though, why would they want too and why should anyone besids the fact it's new and amusing? The rewards are worse than gear already in game thats so much easier to get and the effort and payoff is so small compared to before.

PRE-Abysseas only problem in endgame was bots/cheaters/drama. That's it imho. Salvage drop rates, einherjar and dyna taking alot of people (if you sucked) were justified by the payoff and the cap increase would have fixed that. The payoff aspect of kings and hnm was justified by the long spawns but the issue was the competition and the drama and botting sourrounding it. No one should stand in the way of another player getting great gear, especially if its through means of cheating.

A complete overhaul of the game was not needed whatsoever, and anyone who is jumping for joy over it, is probably someone who either sucked hard or didn't have the time for the events that gave the rewards. Well, i'm sorry but the best gear should be exclusive to time/effort. Doesn't make me elitest to think so either.

EDIT: Also, people saying skill had nothing to do with old endgame, sure OK. But abyssea didn't change that, it only encouraged it further. That argument is invalid to the point myself and others have made in regards to my post.

[Rocl]

fucking paragraphs

[Lovex]

fucking paragraphs

I'll get you a reciept!

And rocl, tell em' stop bannin me in spam, yo.

[Charismatic]

Nah, we don't want your kind around. Would be nice if both you and Ansem were gone for good.

[Lyall]

Lyall said in the official BG forums thread that dynamis,einherjar,salvage etc were not casual events, I totally disagree but that's my opinion.

Nope.

What actually happened was I said that just because Ein is a 30 minute battlefield doesn't mean it is gathered for, begun, and finished in 30 minutes. I also said that oftentimes Ein shells were stand-alone, meaning you were opting out of prime-time time on your social/main/whatever shell to wait for whoever was late in Nashmau.

Please don't put words in my mouth, especially when you couldn't even stick around for the conversation we were having initially. Lv75 content was boring and a grind specifically for the best gear, Abyssea is able to run with my dopey friends who never understood gearswaps and we can still succeed. Does that mean that entire alliances of dipshits can get all the good gear? Sure. Do I give a fuck? Do I run with them? Am I gearing them? Nope.

Any complaint about Abyssea being "too easy" or anything similar is just complaining there is no longer a definite line between "top tier" players and the rest. Get over yourselves. =/

Edit: Read the rest of your post after mentioning my name. I can't even muster a proper reply outside of "You are ridiculous." People shouldn't be allowed to have top-tier equipment because they haven't spent years doing research or doing the Mathy Bits? Wow. You said it, I'm calling you on it. You're brown-nosing. I respect the effort of other people and their time and research to make us know as much as we do about the game, but I'll be fucked if I bow out of working hard for what I have because someone such as yourself deems it too easy and somehow unfair to the people who were there first.

Jesus christ.

[Gredival]

Hmm, your signature saying you hate wow style ffxi.... pretty sure I cant duo endgame in wow with a mule account! Regardless, I think your post ultimately tells me 2 things:

1. You are pursuing an associates degree at a community college and think you using the word "empirically" will impress people.

2. You base your ego off of video game achievements in the online world and are angry you don't have a proper ruler to measure your dick with atm.

Yeah that's from a while ago, XI just kept one-upping WoW on the casual scale.

1. lol RL attack. For some one so anti-epeen you sure are eager to try bring in RL peen. Maybe for your school empirically is a try-hard word, but I only use it because it is the most accurate and concise way to emphasize that my argument is based on.

2. Or maybe I think there is a fundamental purpose to competition within video games and I can recognize that Abyssea has destroyed those elements in XI, which has a terribly destructive effect on the game for several reasons. Moreover, my entire argument is based on justifying this. You obviously don't like it, but you don't seem to have any good arguments to bring to the table in response. Lashing out because you don't want the game to go back to being hard and reveal you as a scrub again?

Not even going to read this post but I'm just going to tell you that old school FFXI was only about who you could get in with, not about your skill. Some of the worst players I've ever known were some of the best geared ones. Gear had fuck all to do with skill unless that shit was from PW or something... don't try to feed people on BG that bullshit. We know better.

I already acknowledged old XI was both over-inclusive and over-exclusive, the issue is the accuracy compared to Abyssea. Once again, do you really think that everyone walking down the town in full AF3 and an Empyrean are equivalent to the old school elite?

Moreover in old XI, I'd easily take a random group of players that had Adaberk over a random group of players made out of general Whitegate dwellers.

What actually happened was I said that just because Ein is a 30 minute battlefield doesn't mean it is gathered for, begun, and finished in 30 minutes. I also said that oftentimes Ein shells were stand-alone, meaning you were opting out of prime-time time on your social/main/whatever shell to wait for whoever was late in Nashmau.

That doesn't mean it's not casual. Dynamis often took longer than the allotted battlefield time as well, was done outside your main shell, etc. and there were far more people who did it than "end game" players. The same is true for Ein.

Lv75 content was boring and a grind specifically for the best gear, Abyssea is able to run with my dopey friends who never understood gearswaps and we can still succeed. Does that mean that entire alliances of dipshits can get all the good gear? Sure. Do I give a fuck? Do I run with them? Am I gearing them? Nope.

Then don't do it. There is no reason you need to have the best gear if you decide doing the events necessary to obtain it is not worth it for you. But if you can't deal with sticking with alternative content, then go out and do whatever it takes to get the best gear.

My whole post offers affirmative reasons why content does not, and should not, be designed such that reaching the summit is something everyone can do. Why people who can't gearswap shouldn't success. You merely assert they should. Why?

Any complaint about Abyssea being "too easy" or anything similar is just complaining there is no longer a definite line between "top tier" players and the rest. Get over yourselves. =/

Restating what I've already say previously. If you want to argue gear doesn't matter, that is as much justification for gear being exclusive as it is for gear being accessible. I'm providing reasons for exclusivity. You come in here spouting sentiments without justification.

How about you accept your non-gearswap friends gear resembling their skill level: mediocre.

but I'll be fucked if I bow out of working hard for what I have because someone such as yourself deems it too easy and somehow unfair to the people who were there first

Except you've acknowledged yourself that Abyssea has made it such that retards can succeed at the highest levels, and you don't care.

Old XI didn't prevent you from working hard to get your gear. Everyone was free, skill level permitting, to put in their hard work (find a shell and camp Aery every day) to get their gear.

[Crysten]

The only thing I've summarized from the novel written in the last two pages is:

"Everyone having top end gear is bad because that means I am no longer a special snowflake or able to flaunt my dick around anymore. Woe is me."

This is the way the game is going now. Deal with it. The elite players will always have their Empyreans, AF+2 or God knows whatever else months before any type of scrub does.

Is someone who plays for 3 hours a day with an Empyrean really that offensive in this day and age? I mean, really?

[Lyall]

Rebuttals

I wasn't trying to say that some events were or were not casual. I was specifically referencing one thing regarding Ein time constraints which Lovex decided to throw my name into for some reason and put words in my mouth.

As for the gimps and idiots excelling? I don't care. I don't play with them. I don't play XI to outclaim other people and prevent people from getting gear. I don't play XI to make sure the Top Tier is clearly divided and alone in their awesome super success. I literally could not give two shits about who's got what, outside of some preliminary complains about Chewy (now Cheweh) scamming people to get his Masamune.

You put work into your post and I'm not trying to discount that. I'm not even trying to prove you wrong, really. I'm just saying as long as I don't have to invest in a bot or suck cocks to get into a duplicate HNM scene I don't give a shit what other people do. It doesn't affect me outside of waiting on retards to finish trying to solo something I want to pop.

There is no reason to make certain gear exclusive except to make it exclusive. You're arguing it doesn't matter one way or the other, but you're still arguing for it.

If you make it exclusive, like HNM camps of old, you get the majority of players, most of which are clueless to game mechanics et al, bitching about being locked out by cheaters. If you make it like Abyssea, you get the old hats bitching about how anyone and their mom can go shout for help to get an Empyrean Weapon. One of these is the bulk of your payment per month, another is a small margin.

Not to bring up old drama, but remember the cries of "Banning the top tier for Salvage Duping will kill XI?" Here we are, yeah?

Tomato, tomato. (That doesn't work in text. Oh well.)

Afterpost edit:

My whole post offers affirmative reasons why content does not, and should not, be designed such that reaching the summit is something everyone can do. Why people who can't gearswap shouldn't success. You merely assert they should. Why?

Because it doesn't matter to anyone else if they do. Does it somehow diminish your prior achievements if someone else mimics success? I have a suggestion for anyone who shares a similar view as you: Stop checking people. Suddenly, it doesn't matter what else the community does. Holy shit.

[Raen Ryong]

I'd be all against removing elements of competition in FFXI if the competition was actually meaningful and based on skill. There were two kinds of competition before, generally speaking;

1. Competition against other people in a linkshell for an item.
=> Grind, grind, grind events until yours drops and you praise the RNG gods. I don't think many people will argue this is meaningful competition, so the second and most prudent;
2. Competition against other people for HNM.
=> Claiming is not skill-based. Claiming is luck based. It is not meaningful competition and therefore I don't care whether it is taken out or not. FFXI was competitive in the way that rolling a die against someone was competitive.

I'm sorry if this sounds like ass kissing but anyone remember excellence/demo/volume type shells? Sure, they did HNMs round the clock and probably botted. Even I myself, don't like failure, But lets not forget what else those groups/shells did for the game. Those players and shells set the standard not because they were just HNM shells, they were incredibly skilled and had amazing players. Do you really think the average player deserves the same stuff as players like stan,kiryschy,failure etc? No. Those players are very talented and they deserve to have the best and be seen as exclusive. I'm sorry it's true. I will never accomplish some of the things a lot of the people in those shells did, but I admire a good player who has the gear to back it up and i'm not jealous or crying about stuff in a game I can't do.

If we can all be honest about our HNMLSs... most decent shells do have one or two top tier players. Sometimes more. However, at least in my experience and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, there is a sizable percentage of the population who are simply average players with good gear. I would have nothing against maintaining a system which gears you according to your skill. But FFXI never has. FFXI didn't care whether you were a Bravura WAR just lacking Ebody for perfection or some gimp 0% haste str ring BST. Randomness. That's all the old competition was based on, and I do not consider competition over random factors as being good for a game.

[Chun Liroy]

Nah, we don't want your kind around. Would be nice if both you and Ansem were gone for good.

Was it worth it?

[Lovex]

Was it worth it?

Meagan Fox > Olivia wilde

[ronin sparthos]

Hm, so many good points yet I feel Abyssea will be the death of this game along with the fact that SE is slowly putting XI out to pasture. As much as I love the housecleaning updates and the appeal to players made within the last year or so, ultimately we're being led towards the eventual heat death of the XI universe.

No future expansion packs or any plans to expand the world of Vana'diel even with XIV tanking has led me to believe that regardless of the fate of their other MMO, this game is going to be denied resources and eventually chase off it's own base.

Abyssea was great and I loved every aspect of it upon release. The smaller scale battles, the lights, the "casual" relics (I hated Dynamis) and emphasis on hitting triggers requiring multiple jobs was innovative but slowly but surely SE took things too far and what we're seeing today is SE shifting from one extreme (you get no fucking drops) to the other (everyone gets fucking drops). The concept of balance is clearly lost on these devs.

Stuff like 200k brews and infinite reraise are fun at first but like any game with cheat codes on, you eventually tire of being a god and long for mortality. I really don't care if every schmuck gets an Empyrean or +2 but leaving no challenges that can't be brewed down, making Atmas obscenely broken to the point where certain classes become filler, continuing to ignore the fact that Abyssea EXP has basically forces most new players to solo grind F/GoV up to 75 along with skimping on lore.

As much rage as I have for old-XI, the game had variety then. Sure you had popular events like kings but you also had creative things like Assault, missions, exploration, EXP parties, Moblin Maze Mongers and other shit to do. Now it's just Abyssea or you might as well logoff.

[Karbuncle]

As much rage as I have for old-XI, the game had variety then. Sure you had popular events like kings but you also had creative things like Assault, missions, exploration, EXP parties, Moblin Maze Mongers and other shit to do. Now it's just Abyssea or you might as well logoff.

I see this mentioned a lot, and while i heartily agree, None of that was given to us overnight.

right now we're in a transition period, It would be slightly impossible for them to release the wide-range of events we had at 75, every 5 levels until 99, where they'd be expected to release even more variety content cause all the variety of content they released at 80, 85, 90, and 95 are outdated like the events you mentioned that are 75 are right now.

I hope thats not too confusing. I have a hard time explaining that right.

Basically, It took them over 4 years(or more?) to give us all the variety of endgame we had at 75. Its just crazy to think we'd maintain that level of Variety at 80, 85, 90, 95, and 99. They're probably saving the big stuff for 99, and trying to keep us occupied until then.

Its not perfect, but by 99, given some time, We'll likely have the level of variety again. Maybe not fully, but hopefully to some extent.

I'd also like to touch base on other aspects. They have begun to move out of Dynamis. They even "updated" Dynamis a bit too. Added new NMs and new drops, which I thought was a nice touch. A lot of the new NMs are even slightly challenging. That and the new Voidwatch system, while sharing some similarities with old systems, Is nice too. It sucks early while we try to figure things out, but once its figured out (like all old systems) It'll be a bit more enjoyable as well.

One thing I've grown to hate is their inability to comprehend that adding Treasure Caskets to GoV Zones with Rare items in them is pointless when you give Caskets a 0.2% Spawn rate (0.3% with Mystery boxes! and 0.4% with 9/9 Treasure Casket Prowess!!!!). Also its frustrating. This supports your "One extreme to the other".

Seriously, I think the majority of the "rare" items in these caskets will remain completely undiscovered for years to come at this rate.

Anyway, To stop babbling. FFXI Endgame at 75 wasn't built in a day, we can't expect every level cap from 75 to 99 to have loads of diverse in-depth content, It would be nice, but unrealistic. If we hit 99 and our variety is bland, I won't mind it for a bit, cause back when we first hit 75 there wasn't a lot to do either, but if it stays bland, I might call it quits, cause your theory would hold sound.

Either way, I'll enjoy the ride. Right now we have abyssea, KCNMs, KSNM99s(for some), Voidwatch, Grounds of Valor(for Some?). This is a little diverse, not a lot, but relate it to what we used to have at 75 when we first hit that. Sky, Ground Kings, some BCNMs vs Abyssea, KCNMs, Voidwatch.

[Gredival]

As for the gimps and idiots excelling? I don't care. I don't play with them. I don't play XI to outclaim other people and prevent people from getting gear. I don't play XI to make sure the Top Tier is clearly divided and alone in their awesome super success. I literally could not give two shits about who's got what, outside of some preliminary complains about Chewy (now Cheweh) scamming people to get his Masamune.

You put work into your post and I'm not trying to discount that. I'm not even trying to prove you wrong, really. I'm just saying as long as I don't have to invest in a bot or suck cocks to get into a duplicate HNM scene I don't give a shit what other people do. It doesn't affect me outside of waiting on retards to finish trying to solo something I want to pop.

There is no reason to make certain gear exclusive except to make it exclusive. You're arguing it doesn't matter one way or the other, but you're still arguing for it.

Actually my whole post was about establishing affirmative reasons FOR exclusivity. I argue there are no similar affirmative reasons for accessibility; accessibility hinges on the idea that gear shouldn't matter, but that can always be turned against you. Why should something that doesn't matter be accessible rather than inaccessible? It shouldn't matter if you don't get it because it doesn't matter in the first place.

Comparatively, exclusivity functions on the presumption that gear does/should matter. Not only is this historically the case, we can see several reasons why this is the case:

1. Dessert: rewarding superiority is the natural order of the world and logical. No one gives raises to the worst employee. Rewarding skill and performance encourages excellence in the playerbase. An excellent playerbase also makes for a more enjoyable experience for the entire playerbase (not having to deal with idiots). Dumbing things down for the lowest common denominator breeds incompetence. That's why America's education system sucks; grade inflation is rampant because we think that every kid being a special little snowflake that can succeed at the highest level leads. Instead of independent evaluations and emphasis on mastery of the material, we just tell every kid they are above average and give them falsely padded high self-esteems which are ultimately destructive (again I'll back my shit up with SCIENCE). If you want to argue that having a game full of idiots isn't harmful for the game, and that a competent playerbase is not something we should strive for, well then I guess we're just at an impasse.

2. Basic psychology:

A) Games trigger the fun sector of our brain because of our innate attraction to skill acquisition. The pleasure we get from games is all derived from accomplishment. Part of that is in getting rewards for tasks (gear) but I'm sure everyone's had one or two moments of joy just from beating something regardless of shitty drops. But as I already argued, accomplishment depends on a sense of mastery. There's no pleasure in the mastery of simple and mundane tasks. Take it to the extreme. Would you play XI if all it was is farming Goblins for dropped gil, then using that gil to buy any piece of gear in the game at an NPC store? Cognitive psychology tells us that games are better (more fun) when tasks are actually difficult such that our accomplishment means something.

B) Mastery is relative. Engaging in competition, direct or indirect, adds to the experience. Look no further than the sports entertainment industry to see the value we place upon competition. A lack of difficulty and the overaccessibility of rewards as a result removes a sense of mastery from playing the game. Psychology tells us that makes it less fun. Exclusivity of gear, and competition for gear, fuels the sense off accomplishment of obtaining it. Of course it sucks for the loser who never accomplishes anything... but see part 1 for why I don't think that means we should get rid of the competition all together.

You think accomplishment in video games is silly? Doesn't really matter to our brains. And that's all that matters right? "Real" accomplishments are only valuable insofar as we get pleasure directly or indirectly from them. Take money -- it is only valuable insofar as it is a means to pleasure in some way. Games are supposed to be fun yes, but science tells us that a fundamental reason they are fun is because of accomplishment.

If you make it exclusive, like HNM camps of old, you get the majority of players, most of which are clueless to game mechanics et al, bitching about being locked out by cheaters. If you make it like Abyssea, you get the old hats bitching about how anyone and their mom can go shout for help to get an Empyrean Weapon. One of these is the bulk of your payment per month, another is a small margin.

Not arguing a business aspect. Dessert is more important to me, and you admit yourself most of the bitching about old XI came from those clueless

Not to bring up old drama, but remember the cries of "Banning the top tier for Salvage Duping will kill XI?" Here we are, yeah?

However while it wasn't exactly "killing XI" I think it's undeniable that the bans hurt XI. After you lost the Salvage dupers you lost a lot of the dedicated math/theory-crafters that did the nitty gritty testing work. I mean how long did it take us to figure out the math behind Empyrean WS compared to how long it took us to figure out that kinda stuff for the Nyzul WS?

And I was pro-ban for reference. Duping defeats the exclusivity and rarity of gear.

Because it doesn't matter to anyone else if they do. Does it somehow diminish your prior achievements if someone else mimics success? I have a suggestion for anyone who shares a similar view as you: Stop checking people. Suddenly, it doesn't matter what else the community does. Holy shit.

Mimicry is not the issue. I didn't mind new shells in the End Game scene in old XI or new players trying to break into end game. If you are able to do the task, then as far as I am concerned you deserve the rewards. I did mind people complaining for content to be easier or more accessible because they couldn't do it. Gear is a reward for completion of a challenge, and if you can't do that challenge then you don't deserve it. Things don't need to be made easier if you can't do it, you need to be better. Not everyone is entitled to everything just because they play.

The issue to me with Abyssea is the fact that there is no stratum of content. It's not like old XI where there was easier and more accessible content for lesser gear, intense content for less accessible rewards. Everything is set to a low bar so that some people don't feel excluded for their inability to compete, and even with the bar set so low, SE gives the complete retards a Gameshark potion to make sure no content is truly ever out of reach.

1. Competition against other people in a linkshell for an item.
=> Grind, grind, grind events until yours drops and you praise the RNG gods. I don't think many people will argue this is meaningful competition, so the second and most prudent;
2. Competition against other people for HNM.
=> Claiming is not skill-based. Claiming is luck based. It is not meaningful competition and therefore I don't care whether it is taken out or not. FFXI was competitive in the way that rolling a die against someone was competitive.

Actually both forms are relevant in a way. They reward he who puts in the most work.

In the first situation, ASSUMING the linkshell is fair (and I'd argue that any linkshell that was excessively unfair would crumble under intrashell drama) DKP or the leaders reward players who play more and better. As much as everyone wants to say that drops distribution was all about who sucked the Linkshell leader off the most, you don't recognize there is a fundamental issue LSs have to confront with gear distribution. Giving an item to the one who deserves it MOST out of a pool of multiple people who may have put in the minimum effort required to deserve it at all. You may "deserve" an Adaberk, if you just joined my shell and there's an older guy who's been waiting a few months and has attended dozens more events he deserves it more.

In the second situation, the laws of probability dictate that a shell that brings more people to more camps will claim more mobs. I've been in lower tier shells where people didn't know how to handle AFK'ing correctly. I even had to kick one fucker for crafting during a KB window.

Conceded this is not a skill test so much as a effort test. But isn't effort part of the equation too? One justification constantly used to defend Abyssea is that it makes it such that if someone puts in the work they will get the rewards. World spawns incorporated that by rewarding people who show up in force everyday with the majority of claims, but leaving open that possibility for anyone putting in the camping work to get the claim. We don't just give AF+1 seals to people who don't want to kill the mob or do the quests, why should Ridills and Adaberks have been given out to parts of the population that weren't willing to work go camp and kill Fafnir?

The skill test came in through the fight itself. Yes Kings by 2007 were piss easy. But keep in mind two things. First, they were not easy at the time they were introduced. Kings were an event that rewarded both skill and effort; must be this good to get drops because you have to kill the mob, must work this hard to get the drops by camping enough to claim and get the drop. Second, even after they stopped being hard for "End Game" players there were parts of the population that still weren't able to do kings and therefore did not deserve rewards.

Now at this point I expect the "Well that's all fine and good, but what sense is it for the best body to the same item that was introduced in RoZ and for the best gear to remain on content that is outdated."

Well first of all, that's not a criticism of the content type at all. It validates all the efforts SE put into the evolution World Spawn system as players grew. ToaU Kings, Ixion, Sandworm.

Second, this issue is about how a game grows as time passes: what permanency and shelf life should gear have? I'd argue several things on this issue. One is that XI did a very good job growing sideways such that it was always important for us to accomplish new content. Second is that permanency of accomplishments is favorable and that there is a way to provide upwards growth through new content that builds on former accomplishments. Instead of the fail augment/evolith systems SE has implemented, we could have had a system in which new content dropped items that could be used to strengthen one's current equipment. Therefore if one's starting with an Adaberk or a Haubergeon +1, the advantage for the old gear is preserved, keeping old content relevant while providing incentive to do new content.

It was also completely possible to grow the game and keep old gear relevant without Abyssea. The reason for the massive totem pole reset where old content and rewards were completely displaced was catering to the DESIRE for a totem pole reset.

So let's address that. You say get over other players getting X and Y. Why can't I just turn around and say get over never being able to beat the neckbeards?

If we can all be honest about our HNMLSs... most decent shells do have one or two top tier players. Sometimes more. However, at least in my experience and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, there is a sizable percentage of the population who are simply average players with good gear. I would have nothing against maintaining a system which gears you according to your skill. But FFXI never has. FFXI didn't care whether you were a Bravura WAR just lacking Ebody for perfection or some gimp 0% haste str ring BST. Randomness. That's all the old competition was based on, and I do not consider competition over random factors as being good for a game.

But do you think that Abyssea is actually any more accurate with aligning good gear with good players. I'll state once more, I'd easily take a random group of players that had Adaberk over a random group of players made out of general Whitegate dwellers.

In old XI, if you put in the hours and were competent enough to hang with a good enough linkshell you could get anything. There were some people that just got lucky, and some that went through more struggle, but it was a far better system than Abyssea's "IQ above a vegetable? Here you go. IQ below a vegetable, well here's a Primeval Brew."

I'm not saying the old systems were perfect. And I would definitely have welcomed any changes to the game that furthered the reward of true skill and different forms of dedication than just the ability to camp windows which can rotate around the clock; although that is arguably one form of dedication. But the Abyssea system did not do that, and Abyssea's popularity is not because of that.

[Draylo]

I've always agreed with Gred's position in these discussions. The game is only getting easier though, +2 items dropping off shadow lizards and what not eventually lol.

[Cail]

I like the way you put it Karb. Like you said, they can't release everythign now, otherwise at 99 we'll all be wondering where the fuck the new stuff is. I'm with you in that I wanna be patient and wait it out. Though, its a bit frustrating seeign right now theres more people in all 4 jeuno zones cuz of merge, then we would have during NA prime on the whole server before merge;;

[Siatdiat]

This is the thing that is retarded about this whole discussion. The game is in flux until it settles next year at final 99 cap, and I know I saw it mentioned that they plan to return back to a side grade type progression system. Right now, the game is just needing to keep people busy playing, so instead of making the AF3 quested like AF1 was, they said fuck it lets make it shit you farm and do other shit in these zones. It is keeping people busy working on their jobs gear and weapons and shit. I have seen many people now as well mention they got alot of a jobs seals they don't have leveled but always wanted to, so they are leveling more jobs and working on more stuff. When the game settles down I believe AF3 will be outclassed by 99 cap gear, and the progression speed will slow down but not be quite as silly as old school with massive bottlenecks. I could be wrong but to judge the game based on its current status or think it should be hard to do current endgame with this technically midlevel content is silly. Not only that but there are still plenty of lazy players who are too lazy to make parties.

So basically, decide if you want to just stay busy fucking around with people you enjoy playing with doing stuff that ultimately "won't matter" or get butthurt and quit. Not that I think you shouldn't make your complaints, I make my complaints pretty constantly on how horrible 14 is. But just letting you know why they shouldn't be trying to make the current endgame any harder than it is considering in the future the only purpose will be to get base armors and weapons for later. Do not be surprised when and if the AF3 is upgradable more, it requires a lot more effort to do so, especially at 99 cap.

Add: In regards to crowded servers, I think they made them more crowded to actually in some ways increase overall activity, and technically some of the new adjustments are to allow for people to be more spread out doing current content. Anyone claiming shit is too easy is retarded and can't understand Abyssea is the new equivalent of what was once Beastmen Kings or NQ behemoth. SO clearly SE has come a long fucking way since then.

[ronin sparthos]

I see this mentioned a lot, and while i heartily agree, None of that was given to us overnight.

right now we're in a transition period, It would be slightly impossible for them to release the wide-range of events we had at 75, every 5 levels until 99, where they'd be expected to release even more variety content cause all the variety of content they released at 80, 85, 90, and 95 are outdated like the events you mentioned that are 75 are right now.

I hope thats not too confusing. I have a hard time explaining that right.

Either way, I'll enjoy the ride. Right now we have abyssea, KCNMs, KSNM99s(for some), Voidwatch, Grounds of Valor(for Some?). This is a little diverse, not a lot, but relate it to what we used to have at 75 when we first hit that. Sky, Ground Kings, some BCNMs vs Abyssea, KCNMs, Voidwatch.

I too intend to enjoy the ride but I have some legitimate concerns that were only heightened by this last patch.

With what we were given this patch it seems SE truly believes we can leave Abyssea and go back to gear gear that acts as sidegrades again instead of the vertical progression that dominated the 3 Abyssea expansions. I do hope im wrong.

With how easy they are making things, jarring people with significantly difficult content is one thing but not backing it up with enough loot will be a significant problem heard through the outcry of players. Things shouldn't be hard just for the sake of being difficult (like Vrtra was @75cap) but instead should reward handily for overcoming the challenges.

The Dynamis revamp and Voidwatch have challenge monsters but from initial reports it seems we've gone back in time to the age of large challenges with little rewards to back it up, in an age where players are being spoiled to no end. After next weeks update, Empyreans are going to become something anyone can obtain (they sorta already were), everything now drops +2 items and Abyssea will eventually cap out.

What I mean to say Karb is with how fast SE is burning out their own transitional content through lowering the bar constantly, they run the risk of losing the base before the 99 cap is reached. It's not like old XI where bad drop rates would tide you over till the next update cause you could legitimately cap gear if you have a focused group now.

SE knows why Abyssea was a success yet it seems with Voidwatch and Dynamis redux we're in a state where Abyssea is where dreams come true and Vana'diel is the world of subpar improvements and sidegrades.

It could just be a tactic played this patch since we didn't rise to 95 but either way it isn't a good sign.

However while it wasn't exactly "killing XI" I think it's undeniable that the bans hurt XI. After you lost the Salvage dupers you lost a lot of the dedicated math/theory-crafters that did the nitty gritty testing work. I mean how long did it take us to figure out the math behind Empyrean WS compared to how long it took us to figure out that kinda stuff for the Nyzul WS?

And I was pro-ban for reference. Duping defeats the exclusivity and rarity of gear.

I fully agree with the entirety of your well written post save this bit.

The bans didn't hurt XI and short of some good people swept up in the wave, the game was better off. SE grew some balls and finally gave people who had believed they were gods the lesson in mortality they rightfully asked for.

The Empyrean data was picked apart on BG and made public right around Scars when WoE weapons and 85 weapons were introduced and alot of the math dropped quickly. Infact I saw no difference between pre-bans BG and post-bans BG save the few individuals who'd often come here to brag to no end or start shit about how their bots bring all the buyers to the yard.

If we want to talk about what was "killing" XI then I direct you to the piss-poor effort SE took during the WOTG era at keeping people interested in the game. It was painfully obvious that funding was cut for XI and updates suffered tremendously which forced alot of people to cancel their subs.