Voidwatch Discussion

[Renzy]

I checked my log after reading what you said and it only had a chance to cast 4 spells before it died (Firaga III, Firaga IV, Fire V, Firaga V) and all were stunned, a Fire Fetter popped after the Fire V. Obviously it was easy to have someone quickly nuke the fetter down, I just thought it was odd.

[Imoq]

About few days ago discussion: have never seen an abjuration in pool in around ~15 fights, just sword (super common), staff (super common!) shield and drachenhorn. Arise and meteor as well, of course. Scrolls seem to have their own slot as sometimes scroll + gear drop but most of the time is just the piece of gear or nothing at all (THF TH on most fights).

Regarding EX vulnerability change without aura message, it is not uncommon for me to see different readings in the 3 or less minutes the fights take with the embrava + 4 rolls + 4 songs + 2-hour strat we use. Either Provenance Watcher has multiple "EX" vulnerabilities or they just switch often without notice. May be a bug as well, but we have never hit white !!! twice, of course.

[Kujah2010]

How are people faring with getting scrolls to drop from Prov Watcher? As of today my ls is 1/20 Meteor and 0/20 Arise, all with THF =/

[Mahoro]

I've seen about one Arise in 10 or so fights. No Meteor. Pretty sure all had some form of THF. Luckily, that one Arise was in a LS group, so it will actually go to a WHM! Haven't done a PUG PW yet; the thought of the screen filling up with freelots makes me spasm. I am also on the infamous Rocomaru Meteor THF Quartermaster server, so the chance of PUGs doing this has dropped drastically as everyone is "a-feared".

[Churchill]

Reardenmaru is inc

[Wardeniii]

I've seen about one Arise in 10 or so fights. No Meteor. Pretty sure all had some form of THF. Luckily, that one Arise was in a LS group, so it will actually go to a WHM! Haven't done a PUG PW yet; the thought of the screen filling up with freelots makes me spasm. I am also on the infamous Rocomaru Meteor THF Quartermaster server, so the chance of PUGs doing this has dropped drastically as everyone is "a-feared".

The idea of a linkshell giving a single player a scroll which would easily sell for 20-40M+ just because he "is a whm" legitimately made me lol. I don't care if the guy is on 24/7 and pisses excellence, I cannot imagine an entire group of 18 people being happy with that decision-perhaps in part due to the fact that I imagine at least 80% of the alliance has whm to 99, all of varying levels of leet/gimp-ness.

[Mahoro]

1) Is it any less lol-worthy for a linkshell to give a single relicholder an Umbral Marrow which goes for 20M? Why not just sell every drop, then wait till each person has enough incremental gil from an endless stream of ADL kills to buy all their Marrows for 100M sometime in 2013?

2) Is it any less lol-worthy to give a single player a Tessera Saio even though 25% of the ally probably has RNG or COR? Why not just sell it for 20-30M to some idiot outside the alliance, then tell the people in your group who want Saio "sorry, you must buy from other groups ;; ?" Why does the non-ra/ex tag on Arise matter? For that matter, why did every LS that camped Nidhogg back in the day allow their members to lot E. Body? Why not just merc from the start?

3) 50% of the alliance may have WHM to 99 but don't want to burn their DKP or be on WHM enough to justify giving it Arise. Sure, that Ukon WAR might be interested in Arise for their WHM in the future, and they can accrue DKP for that reason if that is the case. It's all about priorities.

4) I actually got Arise last night. People in my shell were genuinely happy for me and I got several congratulatory /tells. I didn't interview each and every person in the alliance on their opinion, but they were just as free as I was to lot the scroll with their points.

5) Not everybody distills every drop or event they do to market price.

6) One objective of the game is to improve your character in quid pro quo arrangements where you help people get great stuff and they help you do the same. Find a group that understands this and gives BLM's Meteor, Relicholders Umbral Marrows, and WHM's Arise instead of selling every last drop for gil or trolling Port Jeuno for buyers. I'm in one that's lasted for 8 years upon this premise.

[NynJa]

Id personally go the sell route as long as u have the desperate "FIRSTS" willing to quad overpay on something.

[Mahoro]

I am not completely opposed to that idea, but Meteor and Arise are already languishing in overpriced bazaars on my server. Dunno about other servers.

[Wardeniii]

Yeah, and that is the thing--you are chewing up so much of what your potential gains could be by simply refusing to follow a mantra of "buy low/sell high". Sell it while the prices are still absurdly hiked up and you could make a killing, and yes--same for marrows. Let the individual members decide if "they are the type of person who wants to spend 30M on meteor" by using his/her share of the profits, or let them choose to wait a relatively short period of time and save millions. If anything, this only exemplifies your ideology of "the purpose of this game is to acquire gear". By simply being patient, you could still get your scroll in a couple months, but at a fraction of the cost. You also run into the problem of limiting what members can benefit from based upon the items SE decides to chuck into the game. I doubt you collect up and pool cinders/drosses from VW runs--so what about the guy who wants 99 emp as opposed to 99 relic? He has to somehow work in personal dynamis runs for making money while also getting marrows for all of the relic holders (or make money through some alternate means)? Is he allowed to lot marrows even though he doesn't have a relic, if he would be selling the marrows instead of using them? I wasn't getting that impression of your system since you said "at least Arise will be going to a WHM" (implying the person will also use the scroll as opposed to selling it). Of course, your system may account for situations like this, and may also account for particular jobs people play that have a general lack of "high end sellable items". I obviously do not know the full workings of your system, but if it fairly distribute gear in this manner, then congratulations on having the perfect system, and the perfect group of players to make said system work--being serious.

My lol'ing was also a matter of considering cost/benefit ratios of what we are considering. Like arise--what are situations there should be some issue where players couldn't otherwise pop RR scrolls/pins? None. The player is only weakened for 3 minutes instead of 5, and the spell has a pre-haste recast time of 56 seconds, and 12 second cast time. Neat. This isn't making a mob die more quickly/efficiently--it is an investment in the idea that people are going to die so often that 2 minutes off of weakness will end up deriving some significant benefit, and that they will also be too stupid to remember a reraise item. If the spell revived players without weakness at all--sure, shit happens and people die, and avoiding weakness altogether would be an incredible addition to a serious WHM, even at 40M, and even with lolaby/lolVW having an endless supply of RR scrolls/auto-reraise.

I know we will certainly disagree on several of these points, and at the end of the day if all of your members are happy and do not feel like anyone is getting screwed over (like you say) then that is what is important. I just have my doubts as to not just your system, but any similar system of having the capacity to fairly distribute gear in the manner you are prescribing.

[Churchill]

No one is buying them for the retarded prices and if you do manage to sell it for 20m, if your linkshell is fretting over getting 1m each then lol but what a bunch of lol

[Mahoro]

Yeah, and that is the thing--you are chewing up so much of what your potential gains could be by simply refusing to follow a mantra of "buy low/sell high". Sell it while the prices are still absurdly hiked up and you could make a killing, and yes--same for marrows.

What is this "killing" of which you speak? If we sold Arise for 40M (an insane price which at least nobody on MY server appears to be paying), each person in the alliance of 18 only gets 2.22M. Marrows at least are already way down. You are lucky now to sell for 20M.

Let the individual members decide if "they are the type of person who wants to spend 30M on meteor" by using his/her share of the profits, or let them choose to wait a relatively short period of time and save millions. If anything, this only exemplifies your ideology of "the purpose of this game is to acquire gear". By simply being patient, you could still get your scroll in a couple months, but at a fraction of the cost.

They'd have to be patient for a LOT longer than your example of a "couple months". First, you assume that selling the scroll for admittedly insane amounts won't simply perpetuate the market price and keep it at 40M or higher. You then assume that a person is continuing to get profits through subsequent rare scroll drops or other things (Dyna?) to go ahead and purchase everything they want using incremental gil splits. Telling everyone in your group or LS "sorry you must buy all drops, just wait till the market price drops" is a SURE-fire prescription for not achieving tangible benefits in a reasonable time period.

also run into the problem of limiting what members can benefit from based upon the items SE decides to chuck into the game. I doubt you collect up and pool cinders/drosses from VW runs--so what about the guy who wants 99 emp as opposed to 99 relic? He has to somehow work in personal dynamis runs for making money while also getting marrows for all of the relic holders (or make money through some alternate means)? Is he allowed to lot marrows even though he doesn't have a relic, if he would be selling the marrows instead of using them? I wasn't getting that impression of your system since you said "at least Arise will be going to a WHM" (implying the person will also use the scroll as opposed to selling it). Of course, your system may account for situations like this, and may also account for particular jobs people play that have a general lack of "high end sellable items". I obviously do not know the full workings of your system, but if it fairly distribute gear in this manner, then congratulations on having the perfect system, and the perfect group of players to make said system work--being serious.

The emp vs. relic thing is an SE design choice, and one to which players consent by choosing one road over the other. No, you are correct in that the person who wants emp 99 cannot at this point in our system lot Marrows because there are Relics in our shell that still need upgrading. After we finish those (which is actually on a decent timetable), people will likely want to lot Marrows for selling. In any event, you are right in that the person who wants emp 99s will work in personal Dynamis time, just as the person who wants Mythic will have to do the same. Although I'd love to help these people out more, we can't end EVERY event with a gil split and merc our way to each goal. Sooner or later, SOMEONE is going to have to get a pricey drop, whether a non-ra/ex one you think will sell for 30-40M or a ra/ex one the shell COULD have merced. We only do Dyna 3-4 times a month as a shell for the express reason that we don't want to impinge on side farming time.

My lol'ing was also a matter of considering cost/benefit ratios of what we are considering. Like arise--what are situations there should be some issue where players couldn't otherwise pop RR scrolls/pins? None. The player is only weakened for 3 minutes instead of 5, and the spell has a pre-haste recast time of 56 seconds, and 12 second cast time. Neat. This isn't making a mob die more quickly/efficiently--it is an investment in the idea that people are going to die so often that 2 minutes off of weakness will end up deriving some significant benefit, and that they will also be too stupid to remember a reraise item. If the spell revived players without weakness at all--sure, shit happens and people die, and avoiding weakness altogether would be an incredible addition to a serious WHM, even at 40M, and even with lolaby/lolVW having an endless supply of RR scrolls/auto-reraise.

Again, an SE design choice. Sure, I agree Arise isn't all that, but I could argue Warp is useless because people should carry Warp scrolls and cudgels (like THAT always happens!). I could also argue the same cost/benefit ratio for people using 100M+ worth of items to upgrade 95 weapons into 99 weapons with incremental stat improvements. In any event, dying without Reraise in tougher Voidwatch fights or Legion is a lot more common than one thinks, and who knows if a 3 minute weakness in a timed event can make the difference or not? Admittedly, there is also the prestige factor. Who am I to judge the people who want something like a Sagasinger even though it's basically a pretty toy?

We made the decision a long time ago not to award every drop based on its utility to the shell. If that were the case, we'd be making judgment calls between which Relics to upgrade first and which drops go to what people based on the jobs on which they usually come to events. THAT'S a sure-fire prescription for loss of morale and fragmentation of any LS.

[Wardeniii]

Yeah, I certainly will not deny the prestige factor either. I may (and from the sound of it, most likely DO) have a disproportionally elevated idea of what Arise/Meteor are actually selling for as well. Sylph as a whole seems to be a relatively lazy/unsuccessful server in comparison to the very small bit I see in terms of things such as "overall volume of meteor/arise spells" obtained to date, number of groups successfully killing ADL with consistency, etc. on other servers. I think you also have a relevant/good point in terms of some level of responability falling on the player as opposed to the linkshell dealing with the burden of "having to make everything equally accessible and fair to everyone" (i.e. the marrow vs. riftcinder/dross example).

Anywho, glad to hear you are having success and have such a tight-knit group. I think the real question is, how soon can I jump servers, and how many DKP's would I have to bribe my seductive box with for myrmex mittens?

[Mahoro]

Lol, sure, hit us up if you ever jump servers And oy gevalt, do I wish I could use my sackholder powers to make Mittens appear in LS members' boxes!

[Churchill]

Those powers are loosely based on women's voting rights, and I mean that in the pejorative sense.

[Celebrindor]

Had SE had some brains and made those scrolls Rare/Ex, then this debate wouldn't even be an issue. These spells (admittedly, Arise is completely underwhelming) should have been seen almost as a job relic in themselves, and I would have rather seen them require the ability to get to the event rather than just purchased.

Honestly, I had always hoped that Meteor was going to be quest based with some insane stipulations that would prevent most from doing it because of a mixture of gil, time, battles- the way we see relics and mythics done. Oh well though, I guess a sellable drop was the way to go instead of a RNG rare/ex body piece in a personal box right?

[dasva]

So is it just me or do the resistance atmacites work alot better than I think they should or is gaunabs flare just really crap? I ask because recently on rng I got hit for 0... and all I had on that could help slayer and shell IV I think lol

[Yugl]

Had SE had some brains and made those scrolls Rare/Ex, then this debate wouldn't even be an issue. These spells (admittedly, Arise is completely underwhelming) should have been seen almost as a job relic in themselves, and I would have rather seen them require the ability to get to the event rather than just purchased.

Honestly, I had always hoped that Meteor was going to be quest based with some insane stipulations that would prevent most from doing it because of a mixture of gil, time, battles- the way we see relics and mythics done. Oh well though, I guess a sellable drop was the way to go instead of a RNG rare/ex body piece in a personal box right?

Making meteor rare is ridiculous considering its benefit comes from doing the spell with other BLMs. Alone, its only benefit is from the resistance factor.

[NynJa]

Except with meteor as r/e, mr melee only has no excuse to lot it to sell at 25m

[zard1977]

Surprised this isn't posted here yet

Camate
Community Rep Camate's Avatar


Hello!

As we have finally reached the final chapter for Voidwatch, starting with the upcoming version update we will be implementing adjustments focusing on making this content more enjoyable.

Adjustment content

Upcoming version update (scheduled for mid-May)
Adjustments to drop rates and number of drops from Provenance Watcher
Crystal Petrifact stack quantity increased from 12 to 99

Next version update
Application of the weakness system of the final chapter to all the other chapters
Implementation of ticket system for specific items
Implementation of a system where weakening monsters is possible through paying a fee (Excluding the final chapter)
　
Objective
As I mentioned at the top, we will be making this content more enjoyable, but to go into a bit more detail on this, the idea is centralized around those who are coming in late and did not do this content as it came out with everyone as well as those players who cannot log in during peak times.

Specifically, we are planning to increase the options to counter situations such as not being able to participate when there is a shout due to progression issues, lacking members to defeat a monster, and the strong desire to obtain a certain item.


This post was intended to serve as an outline for the adjustments and the objective behind them, but we will be bringing you specific details for each adjustment in the near future.