Voidwatch Discussion

**Mahoro** · 2012-05-23 15:08

Agree with the above, except would say it isn't the Legion drops themselves that stave most off, but rather perceptions, the skewed difficulty:reward, and the PUG-unfriendliness of the event. Legion is about as rewarding as WoE in terms of useful stuff. 2/3rds to 3/4ths are incredibly mediocre or outright crap. The 1/3-1/4 left are either mostly locked behind the highest wave #s or otherwise relate to cursed items which people can't even craft yet. If items like Maniacus Sash, Fulad Zerah, Esper Earring, A'as Circlet, head/feet abjurations, Meteor/Arise, etc. were in WoE, people would do WoE for em. But because they are in Legion, it's a big ol' cockblock at the moment for many.

On that note, add crafting to the list. Incredibly stupid to make NQ/HQ gear with such huge divergence, and to make capping crafts so difficult with few recipes. Still haven't seen anyone on my server with an HQ craft gear item, let alone augments from the Legion trophy.

**ronin sparthos** · 2012-05-23 15:17

The few HQs on Lakshmi I have observed cost nearly 3/4ths of a relic to buy and amount to such insignificant upgrades that the augments would have to involve dispensing Primeval Brews to be worth the costs.

**Mahoro** · 2012-05-23 16:03

Well that's sort of what I meant, that crafting has been so borked that the HQ gear is not worth the current cost. They would be worth SOME cost, just not the CURRENT cost set by the playerbase at the moment due to SE's poor choices vis-a-vis crafting and rarity. Just to use my two most-loved jobs for an example (WHM + SMN), I would surely like an augmented Iaso Mitra or Spurrina Gages in the future. But obviously they aren't worth whatever insanity crafters are charging at the moment.

**Churchill** · 2012-05-23 16:10

Let's not kid ourselves and call Legion gear anything but crap.

Most of the good abjuration gear, or what could be called an upgrade, comes from VW (Hugin hose, Khepri legs/body, smn hands) which leaves Khepri hat and the whm hat. The war/drk body is fine, sure, if you are so terribly fucking lazy you won't go get an E:Body or P:Body and it is only an upgrade in low ACC situations for people who already have Nyzul Isle F100 gear. It is not an upgrade for anyone who doesn't have Phorcys Head/potentially Phorcys legs. It's not better than AF3 for SAM, and NIN AF3 is identical.

**Mahoro** · 2012-05-23 16:20

I'm not going to list each undiscovered piece on the BG drop page and list who gets what benefit from it as some of it is beyond my job expertise, but I'll note you only discussed half on my list above, which was itself abbreviated to the ones I could list off the top of my head. And yes, like VW, some are sidegrades and some only give minor improvements. But VW is another event where I would consider 3/4 of the drops mediocre/garbage, and 1/4 actually worth going after, most of which only give minor improvements.

My statement above stands: if the 1/4 useful drops from Legion were in WoE (or hell, VW), people would do WoE for 'em. Change the venue and put em in Legion and yes, now I will agree the effort:reward ratio is radically skewed so the event is largely unbaranced.

**Churchill** · 2012-05-23 16:50

2 buyable feet armors could be worked into sets (again, requiring phorcys and thaumas), the drain/absorb gears are macro pieces, maniacus sash is a big hit for anything but meteor on content you really need to maximize MAB. Can do this with every piece of gear.

You're right, there are some people would do WoE for. There are two things which make that statement misleading: a) people wanting gear doesn't make it good or best or worth getting and b) it certainly isn't 1/4 of what Legion offers.

Legion drops 81 pieces of gear (weapons/armor) and 10 Abjurations

Even if I'm kind and incorporate 1 ability/spell use items, rare/ex, and highly situational gear, it comes out to 15/81 being useful (18%) but if you look at gear that is actually good it's more like 5/81 (6%). I understand I'm picking nits but it's very misleading to say the only problem is effort::reward. The problem is that for most jobs 15/15 Nyzul gear is better, the problem is that for most jobs anything from AF3 to VW to 75cap and in between is better than what this offers. We're in a time of sidegrades, sure, but not even most of this stuff is a sidegrade.

15/81

Spoiler: show

5/81

Spoiler: show

As far as the Abjurations, pending augments for HQ's (and only considering HQ versions) you have Khepri Bonnet and Iaso Mitra.

**Mahoro** · 2012-05-23 17:35

Originally Posted by Churchill

2 buyable feet armors could be worked into sets (again, requiring phorcys and thaumas), the drain/absorb gears are macro pieces, maniacus sash is a big hit for anything but meteor on content you really need to maximize MAB. Can do this with every piece of gear.

You're right, there are some people would do WoE for. There are two things which make that statement misleading: a) people wanting gear doesn't make it good or best or worth getting and b) it certainly isn't 1/4 of what Legion offers.

Legion drops 81 pieces of gear (weapons/armor) and 10 Abjurations

Even if I'm kind and incorporate 1 ability/spell use items, rare/ex, and highly situational gear, it comes out to 15/81 being useful (18%) but if you look at gear that is actually good it's more like 5/81 (6%). I understand I'm picking nits but it's very misleading to say the only problem is effort::reward. The problem is that for most jobs 15/15 Nyzul gear is better, the problem is that for most jobs anything from AF3 to VW to 75cap and in between is better than what this offers. We're in a time of sidegrades, sure, but not even most of this stuff is a sidegrade.

15/81

Spoiler: show

5/81

Spoiler: show

As far as the Abjurations, pending augments for HQ's (and only considering HQ versions) you have Khepri Bonnet and Iaso Mitra.

Some random notes:

1) It was my understanding based on talk from BLMs that Maniacus is an improvement over Oneiros Sash because it has more MAB/M. Crit. and allowances can be made for the M.Acc -10 , although granted they may not use it on Lv. 115 mobs etc., not sure if true. Again, job expertise, yadda yadda.

2) It was my understanding based on hearing from BLU that Miodio Gloves are good for 'em, not sure if true. Job expertise, yadda yadda.

3) Would put Esper Earring into the 5/81 list, not the 15/81. It is the best in slot for BP:Rage and there is no existing alternative.

4) The percentages you quote are slightly off because you didn't include Meteor/Arise (as SE implied is an alternate source), possibly Miodio pending a rebuttal which I am sure is coming, the two abjurations you deemed useful, and augments which we don't know about which require the trophy drop (more useful in 2013 I'd wager). Notwithstanding, even if my 1/4 estimation was off by a few percentage points, ~20% being useful/good/great sounds about par for the course for events SE has been adding (see VW, see WoE).

5) You are blending premises in your statement above about people wanting gear. The premise to which I responded said the gear was "crap" or "horrible" (see last 2 pages). While I would never claim that "useful" equals "best", I most certainly would claim "useful" is not equal to "crap"/"horrible" and is likely "worth going after", especially in a game where people's goals are being ticked off one by one at such a rate that people are generally bored and there is not much left to min/max their characters. I specifically left out glowy weapons like Girru and Ikarigiri because I wasn't sure if they were useful apart from people just wanting glows as they do with the VW glowy weapons.

6) I didn't say effort:reward ratio was the only problem. I cited two more problems with Legion at the top of this page. Sure, Nyzul 15/15 might replace some of the items on that list, but not all. And to some people Nyzul itself is a sensitive subject because it will incite debates over 3rd party tools, unattainability, luck, etc. Not saying I share those views, but the zone lies just as dead as Legion some days even though I agree the rewards are fantastic.

**Neisan** · 2012-05-23 19:35

Assuming Nyzul gear if accuracy isn't an issue it's a toss up between Miodo and Nomkhapa and I think Nomkhapa either wins or is still easier to get than miodo since Miodo are essentially nonexistant. If accuracy is an issue Thaumus gloves are clearly better (and aren't really that bad even when it's not assuming 3/5 thaumas already). Sidegrade-ish is correct on those as far as I can see.

Esper earring I'm not commenting on since Smn has a lot of issues.

**Churchill** · 2012-05-23 19:50

Are these the same BLM's that thought A'as circlet was better than Nares Cap? Sure, allowances can be made, and it's the single hardest nuking sash in the game. That would be important if the only thing that mattered was how hard you could nuke trash mobs. Aa's circlet is only on the list because of BLU.

Nomkhapa are better as are Thaumas (than Miodio), for a second I thought I forgot to put Ayao's Gauges, which are a very situational BLU piece but I didn't.

Meteor/Arise come from another event, so you can't use them as an argument for doing Legion and Legion takes way more firepower and ability to complete than a little Dragon lol.

The two lists are the same, Esper earring could be argued for the useful list but SE could release anything as an earring and it would go there. It could have Ifrit BP: Dick Extender and it would be an upgrade.

Regardless of whether or not people want something or want to check it off the list, it has a specific value of whether or not it sucks. This value is yes or no, 1 or 0. If you release an event where 100% of the gear is awesome (Nyzul) then people will want to do it unless you fuck it up (Nyzul). If you release an event where 10% or less of the gear is useful (Legion) then no one will do it, even more so if the event is also fucked up (Legion)

**Mahoro** · 2012-05-23 20:23

On Maniacus, I'm not sure we can say with certainty whether its usefulness is relegated to "trash mobs", or if it could be used for nearly all mobs in the game based on the BLM's gearset. Assume Nares etc., with the consequent stat bonuses. After all, we are talking about ideal sets since you brought Nyzul gear into the equation. On a side note, Maniacus appears on many ideal gearsets on the BLM forums on FFXIAH.com (granted, it's FFXIAH.com). Regardless, I don't mind leaving it in the useful list.

Will people do Legion JUST for Meteor/Arise? Fuck no. Are they useful/good drops to get while you are doing Legion for other stuff? Fuck yes. Even by your own system of using a 0 or 1 value, Meteor/Arise would be AN argument for doing Legion. Do they suck? No. Value = 1. So they shouldn't be left off IMO.

Your last statement reduces the Legion ~20% to 10% to prove a point, but OK, I get the overall gist and I agree the event is fucked up. Again, I'd say people do WoE and VW for only ~20% useful stuff, which was part of my original premise. Obviously, I would say people should give Nyzul clear priority over Legion, although Nyzul's lack of popularity suggests that 100% good gear is not enough. And once somebody is capped on Nyzul gear (or finished their one run a day or back-to-back runs one day of the week), it is not unreasonable to turn one's attention to those remaining items to min/max one's character.

**Taim Meich** · 2012-05-24 04:55

I don't really get why people consider Maniacus an ideal piece at all. Obis are the superior option. And if you can't afford constant weather, well, you are not anymore in an ideal situation.

**dasva** · 2012-05-24 08:32

And for blms? Not like they can change all the weathers nor is it really efficient to constantly change them for a spell or 2 here then again

**Taim Meich** · 2012-05-24 09:00

I thought we were assuming ideal conditions here. Ideal conditions for nuking means you have your own personal SCH (or if the mob resists thunder, then you have all necessary weathers going /SCH). And I don't think that having to constantly change weather is an argument at all. When nuking for damage, BLMs resort with the most efficient element for each mob or thunder if there's no significant resist rate for it. One weather is more than enough to cover nuking power.

**NynJa** · 2012-05-24 10:00

Originally Posted by Taim Meich

Ideal conditions for nuking means you have your own personal SCH (or if the mob resists thunder, then you have all necessary weathers going /SCH).

WHAT ?!?

Originally Posted by Taim Meich

I don't really get why people consider Maniacus an ideal piece at all. Obis are the superior option. And if you can't afford constant weather, well, you are not anymore in an ideal situation.

First thing that came to my mind was this guy is one of those people who think "SCH IS BEST JOB BEST JOB OF ALL TIME UNDISPUTE STRONGEST JOB"...

and then I looked down at the sig.

yup.

**Taim Meich** · 2012-05-24 11:36

Okay. Tell me what waist equipment is better than obi under weather/day. If you can find one, great, I'd like to know to improve. If not, tell me what part of "ideal conditions" you didn't understand, so I can try to explain it to you. I based my whole argument on the premise that we were talking about an ideal situation for the BLM. That means he is nuking with weather. The source of the weather is irrelevant here, maybe he is in, for example, Boyahda under stormy weather? It doesn't matter. I mentioned SCH because it's the easiest source of weather.

**Churchill** · 2012-05-24 11:52

Well since you need Embrava to do anything, having a SCH in the BLM party isn't exactly unlikely to occur.

**Byrthnoth** · 2012-05-24 12:56

They are going to make the Embrava requirement official and add a level 120 Revitalizer Alchemy synth when they up the crafting limit to 120.

Revitalizer (Alchemy Level 120, Everything else Level 76):
Requires all crafting KIs from all guilds and Atma of the Savior, along with all Atmacites upgraded to level 15.
* Water Crystal
* Distilled Water
* Tears of a wild Byrth
* Photoanima

Don't start taking suggestions from the forums now, Tanaka. I'll break your legs!

**NynJa** · 2012-05-24 14:34

Originally Posted by Taim Meich

you have your own personal SCH

Seriously...?

Who uses SCH's outside of Neo-NI for Embrava anyways?

**grevenilvec75** · 2012-05-24 15:04

Originally Posted by NynJa

Seriously...?

Who uses SCH's outside of Neo-NI for Embrava anyways?

I'm assuming the Ideal BLM does, since that's what they are talking about.

**Weeks** · 2012-05-24 15:12

Originally Posted by NynJa

Seriously...?

Who uses SCH's outside of Neo-NI for Embrava anyways?

Provenance Watcher. And aren't they still a big part of Legion strategies?

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