Voidwatch Discussion

[EjinCaitsith]

I just prefer going with red proc party with every single red proc, + 2 heavy DD parties with brd and cor. Everything dies within 5mins with capped red, and usually cap or near cap blue. Would be nice if someone could find out if blue actually helped with rare drops, but massively increased kill speed beats out having blue capped anyways if it did imo.

I 100% agree with this, this how how we've been doing it. Our only priority is to cap red and kill it, but blue normally caps anyways from blitz bonuses.

[Deader2818]

Sounds like you are doing the same thing, just capping red through procs instead of blue. I do it the spread out DD way and still cap both lights and kill things in 4-5 minutes.

[Atoreis]

I'm pretty sure the reason I've beaten them on Qilin is because I can usually ignore Fanatic's and just ride Fool's, between Super Jump and High Jump and the fact that he doesn't have any physical AoE, I can usually avoid pulling hate, so I can keep DDing while everyone else is asleep/petra/slow. That's not them doing anything wrong.

That's admittedly a special case for Qilin though. I'm sure that in a straight out fight where nothing mattered except damage output that I'd lose, probably by more than 4% total damage, until I got a mythic.

With a mythic, I'm pretty sure I could win. It more than *doubles* my damage according to the DPS spreadsheet, and the worst gap I've ever seen between myself and an Ukko war is them at 23% and myself at 12%.


The real point I'm trying to make in all of this is don't have your DRG sub DNC, that's all!

Well they doing something wrong if they have 15 Ukko vs your 26 Drakes. Unless they stagger or WHM taking ages to erase/haste,stona.

[Colenzo]

isnt the best weapon for DRG the OAT weapon ? would make sense if thats what they were using

[ccf]

I don't know about anyone, but most wars are expected to trigger, not really zerg. Most ptys who bring 2 will have one full time trigger/ one zerg, but those who just have 1 are really there for triggers.

I don't doubt drg is a good DD but isn't it a bit of useless to compare a war who isn't really full time on zerg mode vs a drg who most of the time is ?(barring polearm triggers)

[Atoreis]

isnt the best weapon for DRG the OAT weapon ? would make sense if thats what they were using

And I just have a Def Down Lang +3. Once I have Mythic, I'll take any WAR on XD

.

[Foldypaws]

I don't know about anyone, but most wars are expected to trigger, not really zerg. Most ptys who bring 2 will have one full time trigger/ one zerg, but those who just have 1 are really there for triggers.

I don't doubt drg is a good DD but isn't it a bit of useless to compare a war who isn't really full time on zerg mode vs a drg who most of the time is ?(barring polearm triggers)

In the parse I quoted, 100% of his WS were Ukkos, so he obviously wasn't faffing around with procs. (There was another war there who was, and only did like 3% of the damage.)

Jumps and Conserve TP, on top of having a 5 hit instead of a 6 hit (5 hit not being worth it for WAR) means that DRG *should* be WSing a good deal more than WAR.

[Byrthnoth]

Also, he probably died. WAR/SAM has 20%+ more DA than you. If 6 hit to 5 hit is a 20% increase in WS frequency, and 20% DA is almost a 20% increase in WS frequency, then I'm willing to wave my hand at the 10 delay difference between the weapons and call it even. That brings you down to jumps and playstyle, and we haven't factored Fanatic's/Retaliation in yet. You probably won the parse because of playstyle, assuming he didn't die half way through the fight.

Save TP does change things, actually, and tilts them in favor of the 5-hit. But it depends how much you had. Conserve TP makes almost no difference specifically because you have a 5-hit and it can only conserve between 1 and 20 TP. Of the 25% of the time that Conserve TP probably procs, a little more than 5% of the times you're saving one hit off your WS and most of the time you're just benefiting from increased WS TP.

[Foldypaws]

Also, he probably died. WAR/SAM has 20%+ more DA than you. If 6 hit to 5 hit is a 20% increase in WS frequency, and 20% DA is almost a 20% increase in WS frequency, then I'm willing to wave my hand at the 10 delay difference between the weapons and call it even. That brings you down to jumps and playstyle, and we haven't factored Fanatic's/Retaliation in yet. You probably won the parse because of playstyle, assuming he didn't die half way through the fight.

Save TP does change things, actually, and tilts them in favor of the 5-hit. But it depends how much you had. Conserve TP makes almost no difference specifically because you have a 5-hit and it can only conserve between 1 and 20 TP. Of the 25% of the time that Conserve TP probably procs, a little more than 5% of the times you're saving one hit off your WS and most of the time you're just benefiting from increased WS TP.

He didn't die. I didn't win on the parse I posted (it was 17% to 14%). I don't have one saved where I won, but yes, I'm sure it's because the WAR or MNK were busy with procs or died.

I had 20 Save TP, from Atma. So that's really a 3 swings to WS for me vs 4 for the WAR, or a 33% difference. And 20% DA is closer to a 15% increase in WS freq for a war with 20 Save TP and a 6 hit, as the DA only helps if it procs on the first 3 hits.

Conserve TP actually *does* make an appreciable difference. With the 6/tic regain I have (drink/atma/earring), I get ~12 from that, only 2 of which I need for my x-hit. So if I conserve say, 10 TP, that shaves a hit off my build, which happens 50% of 25% of the time, shaving me a hit 12.5% of the time.

Given that I'm at 3 swings to WS, going to 2 swings 12.5% of the time is a ~4.34% increase in WS frequency, not huge, but definitely notable.

So you're still looking at a 25%+ increase in WS frequency for DRG there. Which, doesn't fully explain the Qilin numbers (as I said, the numbers there are certainly skewed by break/sleep), but I stand by my assertion that a DRG even without OaT should be WSing significantly more often than a WAR.

[Darkmagi]

If you have a cor(you should), you're likely over 100 tp before WS animation is finished anyways, war has a huge advantage due to superior ws.

[Foldypaws]

I think my main point in this is getting lost. I'm not trying to say DRG is a a better DD than WAR. Absent mythic, it isn't. I fully admit that. Never meant to claim otherwise. (It may or may not be better with mythic.)

All I'm saying is, don't have a DRG sub /DNC, it's a good DD!

[Taint]

If you have a cor(you should), you're likely over 100 tp before WS animation is finished anyways, war has a huge advantage due to superior ws.

COR changes everything in VW. Without one lots of jobs can compete for the top spot, with one the heavy WS jobs win without contest.

[Atoreis]

COR changes everything in VW. Without one lots of jobs can compete for the top spot, with one the heavy WS jobs win without contest.

I dont think its that easy. On my few parses from Qilin I have myself on MNK with 50/50 ws/melee split and WAR at 59/41 ws/melee. That's not really a lot more for WS.

[Alkimi]

Can Aello be DD tanked OK? Heard it can be a bit nasty and we're a bit short on paladins, the one we do have available will be needed to tank the adds.

[ccf]

I don't think people are doubting that drg is a good DD.

The situations that were given do change the landscape of things, our relic+ emph drk usually does most of our dmg for us but that's cause he's quite smart tactically(uses gnostic drink for example+ knows when to switch btween the scythe+ GS, and of course knows when to get out and stun)

Our emph drg on the other hand isn't so smart, always dies to AOE, so even with hate drop via jumps he dies a lot to AOE, qilin is the only exception where he shines.

Being the top DD isn't as easy as ppl think, it does require you to play smart rather than just plain zerg. Having pdt/mdt sets of course helps a lot as well, so it's not always easy to just say any ukko war is an amazing DD, it has the greatest potential. Whether it is realized or not, that's a completely different story all together.

[Renzy]

Can Aello be DD tanked OK? Heard it can be a bit nasty and we're a bit short on paladins, the one we do have available will be needed to tank the adds.

A good MNK or WAR with PDT/MDT gear should be fine tanking it (preferably 2 people capable of tanking it, along with a PLD dealing with the adds), just make sure to stun Typhoean Rage because it will really mess up the tanks. It helps to have one of the tanks building hate and then standing out of range of Typhoean Rage, so incase it's not stunned that tank can run in and take over while the others Encumberance/Muddle wears off.
Shrieking Gale is hate reset so it's nice to stun this, but priority should be on Typhoean Rage.

[Darkmagi]

One of the fluxes has a tree that is really easy to kite it around if you get encumbered too, I forget which though.

[detlef]

General question: If you you hit a mob with a lower tier of a particular debuff (say Poison when Poison II is already on), can you still get the proc? My gut instinct is yes since you can still get clues that way.

[Byrthnoth]

General question: If you you hit a mob with a lower tier of a particular debuff (say Poison when Poison II is already on), can you still get the proc? My gut instinct is yes since you can still get clues that way.

No, the effect must land for enfeebling spells in order to get a proc, and the effect can't land if there's a higher tier version already on. This also applies to Dias/Bios.

[Helel]

One of the fluxes has a tree that is really easy to kite it around if you get encumbered too, I forget which though.

Think you're talking about the one on the right when you first enter sky (right after the first portal in). There's a tree near the pop. Due to Aello's iron giant type attacks, you can easily just run around it until encumbrance wears off. I used it on RNG too after hate reset.