Random Question Thread XXI: You're Not My Random Question Thread Dad

[Atoreis]

Justice Torque. Nice.

woooooooooops :D Forti ofc XD

[Mojo]

But yeah, anyways, back to 5 hit vs 6 hit. 120 attack is ridiculously not even close. It's around 30 if you're using the proper food.

[Gippo]

if you guys want, I can do more testing of the tp bonus off hand when i get home from work.

will use lvl 1 mobs

do you want me to try to get exactly 100 tp?

[Radec]

I'm not sure why you listed Oneiros Pebble, if its one thing PLD doesn't really need, its Accuracy, especially with Enlight available.
As for the offhand, DMG:55, DA+10 would beat DMG:56, STR+15, especially for WS I'd think, though the mathologists would have to decide on that one.

Regarding the Haste amount, I could just drop Excelsis Ring for Blitz, change Zelus to Fazheluo Helm +1 to maintain 25% Haste and the Store TP/Enmity from Goading as well as gain the +5% DA from Fazheluo set bonus. Only real upgrade from this would probably be Ninurta's so I could use Excelsis instead of Blitz.

Well in abyssea you def don't need more dDex for crits. Absorbing thunder? PLD has terrible ammo choices all around, maybe the STR+2 sachet.
Edit again: Lightning Bow +1 or Ifrit's Bow possible
Khanda is Delay256 vs 218 on Sagasinger was the point I was going for there.

Edit:

if you guys want, I can do more testing of the tp bonus off hand when i get home from work.

will use lvl 1 mobs

do you want me to try to get exactly 100 tp?

Either Exactly 100 tp or note the tp you WS at. It's clear already it applies while on offhand, contention was that cloudsplitter damage shouldn't vary at all if they're exactly 100tp each, on the same mob. If Mob level is +/- 2 you might see a few damage differences, which is why mobs with no level range (lvl0's) were suggested.

[Byrthnoth]

if you guys want, I can do more testing of the tp bonus off hand when i get home from work.

will use lvl 1 mobs

do you want me to try to get exactly 100 tp?

That would be best, if possible. Wooden Arrow + Lamian Kaman should give exactly 10 TP per hit.

[Mojo]

Been said already, but mob level doesn't matter for Cloudsplitter. There is no fINT fo fMND functions, it's just raw WSC + your level + 2 for the base damage (and no pDIF either.)

Edit: Also, it's quite clear that it does work if you were going at approximately the same amount of TP. So I don't think that more testing is even necessary.

[Byrthnoth]

I am similarly willing to accept this testing, as I was when similar testing was presented on the Official forums.

[Fereydoon]

Ideal tp for Ukon? I'm assuming 6-hit would beat out 5? Don't really have a Bard around so usually no marches.

[Haborym]

Ideal tp for Ukon? I'm assuming 6-hit would beat out 5? Don't really have a Bard around so usually no marches.

lol, now my argument is relative!

[Jeryhn]

You should consider having Torero Torque around. If you have Auspice +2, you'll be going from 39 > 49 (capped due to truncation) Subtle Blow, which is a huge marginal decrease to mob TP gain from your strikes. I think in most cases definitely worth the 7 attack 6.3 accuracy from Fortitude Torque. Mars Ring also.

Not really planning on measurably relying on Subtle Blow. Also, don't really need Mars when I have Excelsis.

Is this for abyssea? Because outside this will be better because of massive accuracy gain on body.

Mars instead of blitz outside too.

Yeah the set is for Abyssea, more or less. I'm not entirely convinced that PLD needs accuracy when Enlight combined with A+ sword skill and other normal /NIN TP equipment (Fortitude/Suppa) will take care of most, if not all, of my accuracy needs. Though Twilight is a pretty good TP body for outside Abyssea just because of all the stats and the Refresh effect, I don't think the reason I'd be wearing it would be for the accuracy. Fazheluo seems like a better body for capped accuracy.

Well in abyssea you def don't need more dDex for crits. Absorbing thunder? PLD has terrible ammo choices all around, maybe the STR+2 sachet.
Edit again: Lightning Bow +1 or Ifrit's Bow possible
Khanda is Delay256 vs 218 on Sagasinger was the point I was going for there.

In Abyssea I don't think you'd need much STR to be capped either to the point where attack would be more beneficial. I simply put Thunder Sachet there for WSC on CDC, but admittedly, I didn't think of Lightning Bow +1. I do have an Ifrit's Bow, bow I'm not sure if the extra STR during TP would outweigh the WSC from Lightning+1 on WS, seems marginal either way.

You've a point on the reduced delay of Sagasinger, but if that were the case, I might as well just offhand Joyeuse and simply WS more often. I think its probably better that massive amount of DA on Khanda +2 be applied to both TP and WS for more overall damage (on top of Brutal/Atheling/Fazheluo set used in TP phase).

[TybudX]

lol, now my argument is relative!

No marches make it more in favour of 5 hit since there's less TP delay per WS delay. Also, TP overflow = more WS damage, which some people seem to be completely unaware of. Do Kinematic's spreadsheets take average TP overflow into account on WSs, or do they consider each WS by gear only? Either way, we don't have any idea how much TP affects Ukko's Fury' crit rate, so it's not possible to say if a 5 hit or a 6 hit is better. I would worry about nailing down the crit rate on Ukko's before anything else.

[Atoreis]

You guys are speaking like Sagasinger si easy to get. I know its from Arch DL but i tho its low % drop rate?

[Mojo]

Not really planning on measurably relying on Subtle Blow. Also, don't really need Mars when I have Excelsis.

Ignoring how much of a benefit Subtle Blow can be is idiotic, there's really no other way or reason to say otherwise. Also, accuracy isn't always capped on newer content (or even some older content, particularly the older content worth gearing for, for that matter.)

[Aihree]

Are Angra Mainyu's Pukis' sleepable now? I wouldn't normally ask this, but after a hilarious wipe to him just now, and realising all the adds for previous bosses have been sleepable.. Anyone tried?

Not sleepable. Best to arrange for popper to be someone who can kite while angra is killed by the rest. As far as I could tell, their hate is not linked to angra like it used to be.

[Jeryhn]

Ignoring how much of a benefit Subtle Blow can be is idiotic, there's really no other way or reason to say otherwise. Also, accuracy isn't always capped on newer content (or even some older content, particularly the older content worth gearing for, for that matter.)

So, I should consider Torero Torque over Fortitude because ignoring Subtle Blow is a bad idea, but then you say I probably won't be acc-capped on anything worth gearing for, so why again should I not use Fortitude? Not entirely sure where you're going with this argument. With a NIN sub and Rajas, I'm already at 20 Subtle Blow, not including any other gear or Auspice effect (or the effects of AGI boosts inside Abyssea).

Also, Enlight still exists and has a pretty short recast. Mars is okay and all, but people don't generally wear Mars for the accuracy either.

[Mojo]

Uncapped accuracy doesn't really change the argument much. It's a very small gain in melee attack and sometimes accuracy vs a large often huge marginal gain in Subtle Blow. Also, Subtle Blow is also like Haste in that the reduction on mob TP gain from your strikes experience increasing marginal returns, so already having 20 from /NIN and Rajas just makes it that much better.

[Hitoseijuro]

But yeah, anyways, back to 5 hit vs 6 hit. 120 attack is ridiculously not even close. It's around 30 if you're using the proper food.

How do you figure when just swapping tactical mantle for atheling is an average increase of 50 attack with berserk timers/other gear/RCB just with that 1 piece alone.

Its actually going to be an increase of 78-85attack ~roughly(in/out abyssea). I think he wasnt fully factoring in AF3+2 body which at its peak would add 41attack (78+41 = 119 looks to be about right).

[Jeryhn]

Uncapped accuracy doesn't really change the argument much. It's a very small gain in melee attack and sometimes accuracy vs a large often huge marginal gain in Subtle Blow. Also, Subtle Blow is also like Haste in that the reduction on mob TP gain from your strikes experience increasing marginal returns, so already having 20 from /NIN and Rajas just makes it that much better.

If this is the case, why not keep Fortitude and use Heed Ring instead of an attack ring?

[Taint]

If I'm not mistaken, 6-hit is still better even without a Ukon.


EDIT:
So do something like; Restraint Up, Restraint Down. With Double Attack augments on E.Body.

Augmented Ehands should be used in your restraint down set.

Acc is an issue on the upper VW tiers. (Where PLDs are currently being used alot) The 8acc from Mars's will be useful.

[Mercilessturtle]

Ideal tp for Ukon? I'm assuming 6-hit would beat out 5? Don't really have a Bard around so usually no marches.

5 hit wins without marches. Look at the 2 sets hab posted (but switch the gloves to be the same and use strigoi). 5 hit gains a bit over 22% WS frequency. 6 hit gains 9 DA which brings us down to ~15% WS freqency for the 5 hit. So you need 28 str, 11 dex, 16 acc, 3 crit rate, 60 attack during tp phase to add more damage than 15% WS damage.

Inside abyssea the dex and acc are useless, and the str is only giving you attack. 81 attack is like 10% tp phase damage and 3% crit is like 2.5% tp damage. You gain a little from crit during ws and the 20 attack during ws, but you also don't actually get as much from the DA as I said, since you'll have AoA, so 5 hit has a comfortable lead.

Outside of abyssea you need some combination of the acc mattering, fstr not being capped, and being in the sweet spot for ddex in order for the 6 hit to come up even or pull ahead. Anything you are in the sweet spot for on ddex you are capped on acc, likely capped on fstr, and probably pushing pdif cap so the attack is getting devalued. So, that pretty much leaves voidwatch and the new dynamis NMs for 6 hit having potential.