(Update) Michigan Republicans Sell Cities - Dismiss Elected Officials

[Kuya]

Your posting a mess here. Whether or not a official can do whatever he wants depends on a lot of things. It matters what the constitution says, but it also matters whether people care what he's doing, and what sort of position he has. A judge, for example, is not expected to rule cases in a way that is always popular, but a judge that wishes to stay a judge for a long time knows well enough that he can't always make very unpopular decisions. Similarly, public officials chosen by other politicians are not obligated to please citizens in every way, but they are expected to do what they were chosen to do and to do so in a transparent way. Elected officials are expected to do what people ask them to do, because they are representatives. They can ignore what citizens want, but that would be making a joke out of their position as a representative, and they might have to suffer the consequences.

Meaning, whether or not a public official can do what he thinks is right and go against the will of the citizenry is something that depends on a lot of things. Elected officials are the ones who are least expected to ignore what citizens want and ask for.

But in every case, every public official is expected to faithfully abide by a certain set of principles. Principles such as the rule of law, democracy, and constitutionalism. A public official that thinks he can violate any of these principles for the sake of some greater good is skating on thin ice.

So please stop yelling republicanism, constitutionalism and corporatism and pretending it means anything to anyone.

[Kuya]

But when people aren't acting in the best interest of their community and let things turn to shit, isn't that a failure of democracy? .

No, it's not stupid.

[Senoska]

The governor cut spending to the cities because the money was being mismanaged and because they were running massive deficits. The city spent all of its bond money in 3 years. I don't have an agenda. I'm still waiting for your democratic solution to the problem, but I guess you got temp-banned or something. The funding comes from lower corporate tax rates bringing more businesses into the area so people can have jobs and pay taxes, since Michigan is 5th in the US in unemployment.

There is no problem. It's a fake issue. They are running deficits for no reason other than the governor decided to make them face deficits. There seems to be a trend with the republicans lately being elected into office for something completely unrelated to what they're actually intending to do. And that's the case here. This was not a running point, and our governor is newly elected making it impossible to recall him for a year. How can you say that this is the elected officials problem? Did you read why they were being dismissed? And I quote: "Because they would debate on spending for hours." I would certainly hope so. Democracy isn't a thing of convenience. YOU or anyone else cannot simply decide the population is wrong and then oust anyone YOU disagree with. The simple fact is that the people put them there, and you need to work with those people to fix the problem, not fire them and ignore what they have to say.

[*Shinzon*]

But when people aren't acting in the best interest of their community and let things turn to shit, isn't that a failure of democracy? What's the point of legitimacy and consent when you have an apathetic electorate who votes purely on race/party line? Like I said, it's not a black and white issue. There are a lot of shades of gray.

There's still no failure of the system or democracy in that scenario. It's a failure of the populace of that area for voting in candidates who aren't qualified and who were supported by either one of the giant political party machines pushing them into office. People apparently fail to filter out the bullshit every candidate spouts about making change to that matters so long as it sounds good. There's no substance or track record to backup those claims and so unqualified individuals make it to office and don't bring other qualified people into positions of power crippling the system. All set into motion by those who elect, not the system.

[Drex]

Your posting a mess here. Whether or not a official can do whatever he wants depends on a lot of things. It matters what the constitution says, but it also matters whether people care what he's doing, and what sort of position he has. A judge, for example, is not expected to rule cases in a way that is always popular, but a judge that wishes to stay a judge for a long time knows well enough that he can't always make very unpopular decisions. Similarly, public officials chosen by other politicians are not obligated to please citizens in every way, but they are expected to do what they were chosen to do and to do so in a transparent way. Elected officials are expected to do what people ask them to do, because they are representatives. They can ignore what citizens want, but that would be making a joke out of their position as a representative, and they might have to suffer the consequences.

Meaning, whether or not a public official can do what he thinks is right and go against the will of the citizenry is something that depends on a lot of things. Elected officials are the ones who are least expected to ignore what citizens want and ask for.

But in every case, every public official is expected to faithfully abide by a certain set of principles. Principles such as the rule of law, democracy, and constitutionalism. A public official that thinks he can violate any of these principles for the sake of some greater good is skating on thin ice.

So please stop yelling republicanism, constitutionalism and corporatism and pretending it means anything to anyone.

But he was elected to balance the budget and turn around the failing cities like Benton Harbor. That was pretty much his entire platform, and the vote wasn't very close.

[Drex]

There is no problem. It's a fake issue. They are running deficits for no reason other than the governor decided to make them face deficits. There seems to be a trend with the republicans lately being elected into office for something completely unrelated to what they're actually intending to do. And that's the case here. This was not a running point, and our governor is newly elected making it impossible to recall him for a year. How can you say that this is the elected officials problem? Did you read why they were being dismissed? And I quote: "Because they would debate on spending for hours." I would certainly hope so. Democracy isn't a thing of convenience. YOU or anyone else cannot simply decide the population is wrong and then oust anyone YOU disagree with. The simple fact is that the people put them there, and you need to work with those people to fix the problem, not fire them and ignore what they have to say.

The previous governor was a democrat, and the one who selected the EFMs in the first place. It has nothing to do with Republicans vs. Democrats. The deficits have been there since long before Snyder. Unless you really believe Michigan wasn't in trouble until a year ago or so.

[Kuya]

But he was elected to balance the budget and turn around the failing cities like Benton Harbor. That was pretty much his entire platform, and the vote wasn't very close.

Did he run on the plataform that he would dismiss elected officials?

[Senoska]

The previous governor was a democrat, and the one who selected the EFMs in the first place. It has nothing to do with Republicans vs. Democrats. The deficits have been there since long before Snyder. Unless you really believe Michigan wasn't in trouble until a year ago or so.

That's false. EFMs are not the problem. EFM's dismissing governments because they can is the issue, which is a power that Snyder put in place.

[Senoska]

But he was elected to balance the budget and turn around the failing cities like Benton Harbor. That was pretty much his entire platform, and the vote wasn't very close.

Except rather than balance the budget, he is creating a debt crisis by not funding the cities. Students are being forced to squat in their schools because the city cant afford to keep them open, not because the city was failing, but because they're not receiving funding from the state. I don't get how you can think depriving the city of money is going to balance the budget, if anything, this is creating a bigger budget problem.

[kyod]

There is no problem. It's a fake issue. They are running deficits for no reason other than the governor decided to make them face deficits. There seems to be a trend with the republicans lately being elected into office for something completely unrelated to what they're actually intending to do.

This is not a Democrat/Republican issue. Illinois is contemplating similar cuts in funding to cities and the state is controlled by Democrats. State governments, in general, are passing the buck to cities regardless of political affiliation.

[kyod]

There's still no failure of the system or democracy in that scenario. It's a failure of the populace of that area for voting in candidates who aren't qualified and who were supported by either one of the giant political party machines pushing them into office. People apparently fail to filter out the bullshit every candidate spouts about making change to that matters so long as it sounds good. There's no substance or track record to backup those claims and so unqualified individuals make it to office and don't bring other qualified people into positions of power crippling the system. All set into motion by those who elect, not the system.

Benton Harbor is a poor, and largely uneducated city. It's demographics compared to St. Joseph are a complete 180. With a very low voter turnout and, in general, uneducated voters, you have a recipe for disaster. Responsibility, legitimacy, consent aren't even issues being considered. Are the voters to blame for being poor and uneducated when the city is responsible for education? I'm not here to say democracy is awful and it needs to be overthrown, but a lot of people are speaking from the ivory tower of political theory and not the reality of the situation.

[Senoska]

This is not a Democrat/Republican issue. Illinois is contemplating similar cuts in funding to cities and the state is controlled by Democrats. State governments, in general, are passing the buck to cities regardless of political affiliation.

While you can point to one example I have not read much into, I can name probably 15 examples of this happening nation wide where each time it has been a republican. So for the most part, this is an issue with the far right being radical, to an extent that almost makes me want to call them fascists

[Kuya]

Benton Harbor is a poor, and largely uneducated city. It's demographics compared to St. Joseph are a complete 180. With a very low voter turnout and, in general, uneducated voters, you have a recipe for disaster. Responsibility, legitimacy, consent aren't even issues being considered. Are the voters to blame for being poor and uneducated when the city is responsible for education? I'm not here to say democracy is awful and it needs to be overthrown, but a lot of people are speaking from the ivory tower of political theory and not the reality of the situation.

I don't see how the solution to political apathy and destitution caused by economic inequality is nullifying democracy.

[kyod]

While you can point to one example I have not read much into, I can name probably 15 examples of this happening nation wide where each time it has been a republican. So for the most part, this is an issue with the far right being radical, to an extent that almost makes me want to call them fascists

Off the top of my head, Minnesota and Washington are also considering education funding cuts to cities, similar to the vein you were upset about. Both state have democratic governors. Minnesota has a republican controlled state legislature while Washington has a democratic controlled legislature.

Pretty sure there are some others but I don't know off the top of my head. I'm not a fan of most Republican governors, but it's not an isolated thing.

[Senoska]

Off the top of my head, Minnesota and Washington are also considering education funding cuts to cities, similar to the vein you were upset about. Both state have democratic governors. Minnesota has a republican controlled state legislature while Washington has a democratic controlled legislature.

Pretty sure there are some others but I don't know off the top of my head.

Cut backs != nullifying voter rights, collective bargaining, ending national social services, and dismissing elected officials like the right is doing.

[Drex]

Except rather than balance the budget, he is creating a debt crisis by not funding the cities. Students are being forced to squat in their schools because the city cant afford to keep them open, not because the city was failing, but because they're not receiving funding from the state. I don't get how you can think depriving the city of money is going to balance the budget, if anything, this is creating a bigger budget problem.

I'm pretty sure his budget cuts did not cause Michigan's debt crisis, considering Benton Harbor couldn't even afford their interest payments before the EFM takeover happened.
If you're bleeding money, the solution is not to pour more money in, its to plug the leaks. Have you even checked out what the EFM's proposal (you know, the one the city council blew off years ago) has in it? The only reason Benton Harbor has been keeping afloat is because the state of Michigan has been pumping more and more state tax money into them and the other failing cities like it. The solution is not to spend more money on them (there really isn't any to spend, judging by Michigan's finances), the solution is to reign in their spending.

You're acting like they've earned all this money themselves. They didn't.

[kyod]

Cut backs != nullifying voter rights, collective bargaining, ending national social services, and dismissing elected officials like the right is doing.

In your posts you state the problem is not funding cities which caused the financial crisis in Benton Harbor. That is the point I am addressing, not the other crazy things Republican governors are doing. That's for another topic/debate.

[Drex]

I don't see how the solution to political apathy and destitution caused by economic inequality is nullifying democracy.

Considering the city has allowed its council to steal $10million from the local pension plan to pay for other projects, and allowed it to drive all entrepreneurship and potential employers out of town by jacking up the corporate tax rate whenever possible, I think your cause and effect may be backwards. Of course this does create a convenient scapegoat for the council, since they can just point at Snyder and say "hurr the EFM did it!" when he informs them that their pensions are underfunded. In fact, they already did.

[Senoska]

In your posts you state the problem is not funding cities which caused the financial crisis in Benton Harbor. That is the point I am addressing, not the other crazy things Republican governors are doing. That's for another topic/debate.

Well, attaching to one thing and saying that is the cause is a little dishonest and that's not what I'm saying. I'm addressing Drex's point that this is somehow a disastrous financial situation in which we need to dismiss elected officials and the truth is a large portion of this debt the city is facing is due to the fact the city is not funded. So contextually, that is the cause of the problem. In the grand scheme of things, perhaps not so much. The real issue here is the right is trying very hard for some power grabs, which appear to be death throws from their party. People are fed up with their shit so they're going to try and force themselves into power. This was the reason for the union busting. This is the reason for dismissing elected officials, etc.

I'm pretty sure his budget cuts did not cause Michigan's debt crisis, considering Benton Harbor couldn't even afford their interest payments before the EFM takeover happened.

Michigan is not in a debt CRISIS. There is some debt, sure. And we're at a low point, but we are not out of money. We host some huge industries here, including a good deal of trade with Canada, the car industry, a good deal of high tech jobs (I will speak from experience. Michigan hosts a TON of software companies.), and of course, the auto industry. We are not as broke as you are trying to make us out to be. There are, though, so places that are unquestionably poor, such as parts of Detroit, but this is a bigger issue. This stems for corporate greed and making money by fucking over the poor in your society. This is another debate, though.

If you're bleeding money, the solution is not to pour more money in, its to plug the leaks. Have you even checked out what the EFM's proposal (you know, the one the city council blew off years ago) has in it? The only reason Benton Harbor has been keeping afloat is because the state of Michigan has been pumping more and more state tax money into them and the other failing cities like it. The solution is not to spend more money on them (there really isn't any to spend, judging by Michigan's finances), the solution is to reign in their spending.

Benton Harbor has a debt of only 6 million dollars. With a city of 10,000 people, this really isn't that much money. Why don't you tell me why you think the state is throwing money at this problem?

You're acting like they've earned all this money themselves. They didn't.

They did by living in a society that guarantees them life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In a country with the highest amount of billionairs on the planet, you would think a 6 million dollar debt would be manageable.

[Drex]

Well, attaching to one thing and saying that is the cause is a little dishonest and that's not what I'm saying. I'm addressing Drex's point that this is somehow a disastrous financial situation in which we need to dismiss elected officials and the truth is a large portion of this debt the city is facing is due to the fact the city is not funded. So contextually, that is the cause of the problem. In the grand scheme of things, perhaps not so much. The real issue here is the right is trying very hard for some power grabs, which appear to be death throws from their party. People are fed up with their shit so they're going to try and force themselves into power. This was the reason for the union busting. This is the reason for dismissing elected officials, etc.

Michigan is not in a debt CRISIS. There is some debt, sure. And we're at a low point, but we are not out of money. We host some huge industries here, including a good deal of trade with Canada, the car industry, a good deal of high tech jobs (I will speak from experience. Michigan hosts a TON of software companies.), and of course, the auto industry. We are not as broke as you are trying to make us out to be. There are, though, so places that are unquestionably poor, such as parts of Detroit, but this is a bigger issue. This stems for corporate greed and making money by fucking over the poor in your society. This is another debate, though.

Benton Harbor has a debt of only 6 million dollars. With a city of 10,000 people, this really isn't that much money. Why don't you tell me why you think the state is throwing money at this problem?



They did by living in a society that guarantees them life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In a country with the highest amount of billionairs on the planet, you would think a 6 million dollar debt would be manageable.

Last I checked, Michigan is traditionally a blue state. A republican winning by a landslide there is hardly "tired of the party's shit". On a national level, the house is a republican majority and the democrats lost ground in the senate too. I think you're projecting a little.

6 million dollars is a ton of money when most of those people are unemployed and the city is so short on other people's money that they can't pay the interest on the loans they already took. They're also still running a $4million per year deficit, so it's growing fast. It's called prevention. He's already proposed plans that will cut the deficit in half in a single year, which is a pretty significant start.

The city (and state) kicked those billionaires out with a raised middle finger with some of the highest corporate tax rates in the country. Now all of a sudden they want the billionaires' money, no strings attached. You do know who gets hit the hardest by corporate taxes right? From there, it's not tough to connect the dots and figure out a long term solution to the money problem. It's hard to raise tax revenue when none of your citizens pay taxes (all unemployed), and it's hard to get them jobs when your political policies are run on the agenda of "Corporations are out to get us! We don't need you!"