Gimp/Confused/WTF Player Thread XXII: someone who doesnt play my MMO as much as me

[Vlorsutes]

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7052/gimph.jpg

The gimps you'll find doing Minax Bugard sometimes when you run up to his area.

[S N K]

Why are you guys being so rude and angry? x_x

Welcome to BG. Plus Rocl has sorta been like that forever. You kinda put your foot in your mouth with what he quoted you on.

It only took people so long to hit 75 because we were all retarded about game mechanics in 04. Fighting IT++ mobs has always been dumb, we just didnt realize that. And how much gear swapping did we do back then? Oh, also 2+ hours of LFG and an hour running to camp didnt speed things up either.

Yeah, people suck now. They have always sucked though. Who cares if they are lvl 90? If they suck, kick them from your group. Just like you did at 75.

This.

[Byrthnoth]

2004 xp to 75 was way higher and our gear was worse because limited materials like v claws and d ingots had simply not dropped enough for those armors to be reasonably priced. Less material to make gear, fewer drops, and more demand because it was nearer to release. We were also retarded about some game mechanics, but some things were an outgrowth of how bad the average melee was geared.

I'm still trying to figure out why we killed IT++ mobs like they were the only way to get xp though.

[Nightfyre]

big number syndrome and lack of parsers

[Yimoa]

Sorta like thief getting important with dancing edge.

[Raen Ryong]

You should have to level for like 2 weeks straight getting 5k/hour in onzozo to get a WHM past 70 imo, should be like a maat fight for mages(or whm's) only. Teach those healers how to -na instantly or die/gain 0 exp again.

Grinding does not develop skill though. Practice does. Grinding doesn't.

If I told you to grind 500 colibri and I told someone else to grind 5000 colibri, would the other person emerge significantly more skilful than you? I should hope you'll contest that killing 10x the number of colibri doesn't make you a better player.

Yeah, okay... a fresh 90 player through Abyssea may be less skilled than a grinded 75 player for a small window of time, but we're talking small - it shouldn't take much more than a little bit of practice to get good at any given job, and even then that's only if the job isn't fairly interchangeable (which is to say, being good at WAR means you have a decent chance of being good at MNK, DRG, SAM ... etc).

EDIT: The rudeness I suspect is just because so many people have said this so many times over the past few months that it's becoming tiresome.

[Shiyo]

If you made someone level on torama in onzozo, and had to stona/paralyna their tank instantly or they'd gain a ton less exp it would teach the WHM/mages how to use -na's quickly and properly. It would be good training. That was my point, new mages are so slow and don't get any real training leveling up to teach them.

[Byrthnoth]

I'd contend that grinding increases your skill at grinding, but not necessarily over all. You mostly refine the skill sets that you're practicing when you grind. For instance, a RDM that grinds to 90 isn't going to be substantially better at soloing or mage duoing than a RDM who Abysseas their way to 90. I'd make the argument that the minor amount of difference it does make is entirely trumped by having basic reflexes and a pulse.

Just from observation, a good melee that makes an honest attempt at understanding, gearing, macroing, and playing RDM (despite it being their first mage job) is infinitely better than a bad mage that "leveled the traditional way." They have to develop all the skill sets that mages have, but we're talking about the work of a few nights, not the work of grinding for 200 hours in bad parties.

As far as 500 vs. 5000 Colibri, I think that I continued to become a better merit party healer on RDM pretty much continuously up until I capped merits, but I doubt I'd be able to look at two merit sessions and predict which was towards the end of meritting and which was towards the mid point.

It has been years since anyone seriously leveled on Torama, or anything that actually requires enfeebling or status removal. Sucks, but it is what it is. All mages learn by grinding is how to heal, run a buff cycle, conserve MP, and not pull hate.

[Lyall]

First, re:Shiyo: People got upset with you because you quoted an obviously-sarcastic post and then rebutted it, to be specific. This is Gimp/Confused Twenty-Two, the idea of there having been that many threads just because of Abyssea is ridiculous.

Second, we're sort of splitting knowledge/know-how and reflexes into two things. Knowing how to change gear and what you should be wearing isn't something you can just figure out; Before I knew how to, I knew that switching gear was possible but honestly the macro syntax eluded me and isn't something I'd wager most people ever got without someone telling them.

Likewise and conversely, you could take someone wearing entirely MP gear on their WHM and force them to level only on Torama and status-heavy monsters, and you could cut that person's reaction time to nearly-instant removal. They might not know how to do anything else, and they might not know what gear is worth cent one, but dammit, they know how to -na spell their ass off.

The two are not mutually exclusive, and one of these things can't even be taught; If your person at the keyboard has shitty reflexes, they won't ever be able to keep up with someone who can. Swapping gear is a little more lenient in closing the gap between "Knows this inside and out" and "had someone else write all their macros, has no idea how to edit them."

[shaddix]

I never needed any training to learn to -na instantly, it just made sense to do, why wouldn't you do it instantly unless there was a threat of high dmg move or some other reason? I know mages that are absolutely horrible even with repeatedly telling them in /p what to do and they just never get it, you just end up telling them to never come on support jobs.

To quote someone on here I can't remember who "If you can operate a toaster you can play ffxi."

[Cail]

Fuck that, toasters are hard...mine always come out black + crispy..

[Lyall]

I never needed any training to learn to -na instantly, it just made sense to do, why wouldn't you do it instantly unless there was a threat of high dmg move or some other reason? I know mages that are absolutely horrible even with repeatedly telling them in /p what to do and they just never get it, you just end up telling them to never come on support jobs.

To quote someone on here I can't remember who "If you can operate a toaster you can play ffxi."

I didn't mean to imply that it is a skill that has to be worked on, I just meant that reflexes are an intangible you can't really manifest by reading a guide to casting. There are some people who just cannot respond quickly to Blaster no matter how much warning they have, or how many times they've had to -na something off. What you're talking about is good instinct (It being natural and sensible to remove a status effect) that "bad" players never seem to learn (see your statement about mages who never manage, even when being told in /p).

[Rocl]

I'm not being rude, I just fucking despise you with every fiber of my mortal being.

[Kidnoftle]

I never needed any training to learn to -na instantly, it just made sense to do, why wouldn't you do it instantly unless there was a threat of high dmg move or some other reason? I know mages that are absolutely horrible even with repeatedly telling them in /p what to do and they just never get it, you just end up telling them to never come on support jobs.

To quote someone on here I can't remember who "If you can operate a toaster you can play ffxi."

It's not really that so much as players being completely clueless. I don't think anyone would argue against removing status effects (and if they do then, well, I don't need to elaborate on that), the problem is players just don't pay attention enough or understand the nature of what's going on enough to understand exactly how those serve as detrimental factors and to what extent. That, however, is far less common than "I just have no idea what tp moves give what status ailments so I'll just wait until the melees bitch to remove it." Both of those come with just accustoming yourself with the game though as well as research into mobs. Regardless; the gimp thread was just as active prior to abyssea as it is now lol; if anything the gimp effect is slightly less now since mediocre gear is stupidly easy to obtain (pink nins vs the 2006 nins using gear that just had no stats on them for example).

Also, fuck toasters, I broil bread mother fucker.

[TacoTaru]

The only thing I will somewhat agree with with Shiyo about (god help me for walking into this mess) is that I don't think new players get the same opportunity to learn the way the once did in parties. People who have been playing for years? No there's no hope for them if they haven't learned by this point.

Maybe I was more patient than some, but I tried to help gimp players when I could and encountered plenty of people who didn't know why they should swapping gear (they had just been told they need to) or didn't know they should be at all. Granted those players could get the same things taught to them now, but when you fly from 30-90 in one party or you're soloing/duoing all the way to 90, you don't gear nearly the same exposure to critiquing as you would have in the era pre-Abyssea.

[SnowNoodle]

I'm not being rude, I just fucking despise you with every fiber of my mortal being.

GDI ROCL

[Aureus]

It's not really that so much as players being completely clueless. I don't think anyone would argue against removing status effects (and if they do then, well, I don't need to elaborate on that), the problem is players just don't pay attention enough or understand the nature of what's going on enough to understand exactly how those serve as detrimental factors and to what extent. That, however, is far less common than "I just have no idea what tp moves give what status ailments so I'll just wait until the melees bitch to remove it." Both of those come with just accustoming yourself with the game though as well as research into mobs.

There are two sides to this issue too. Just as bad as a mage that won't cure statuses are melees that whine about irrelevant statuses. I've seen melee players ask for viruna when they're fighting a mob that uses disease, or ask for poisona on very weak poisons. I've seen people demand erases for the mostly-meaningless elemental debuffs.

Not every debuff needs to be cured, or should have a mage paying attention to it.

[blkswrdsmn]

Shiyo said something that made a good point. In a way, back in the old days of grinding, when you had to go to out-of-the-way camps and totally different areas with different mob types, the game taught you how to play the game.

As you learned abilities the mobs you were fighting would force you to use those abilities to be efficient. From a mage-oriented viewpoint (as mentioned) stona/para in LoO, erase in the nest, bar spells, etc. Remember exp-ing with skillchains? Magic bursts?

When spamming WS with only 1 mage came into play, that was somewhat lost.

[Neisan]

Shiyo said something that made a good point. In a way, back in the old days of grinding, when you had to go to out-of-the-way camps and totally different areas with different mob types, the game taught you how to play the game.

As you learned abilities the mobs you were fighting would force you to use those abilities to be efficient. From a mage-oriented viewpoint (as mentioned) stona/para in LoO, erase in the nest, bar spells, etc. Remember exp-ing with skillchains? Magic bursts?

When spamming WS with only 1 mage came into play, that was somewhat lost.

Remember when we thought Tping in Str/attack was better than haste? I do too.

[lolwut]

Shiyo said something that made a good point. In a way, back in the old days of grinding, when you had to go to out-of-the-way camps and totally different areas with different mob types, the game taught you how to play the game.

As you learned abilities the mobs you were fighting would force you to use those abilities to be efficient. From a mage-oriented viewpoint (as mentioned) stona/para in LoO, erase in the nest, bar spells, etc. Remember exp-ing with skillchains? Magic bursts?

When spamming WS with only 1 mage came into play, that was somewhat lost.

But none of that is anything that you couldn't quickly learn in any non tank-n-spank fight. A level 75 player with the bare minimum of intelligence could figure out what abilities, buffs or debuffs are necessary on Byakko by the third pop, or get the hang of doing them when instructed by someone else. They didn't need months of grinding to do it then any more than they do now, it's just the people who would have been gimp regardless who stay gimp now.

I don't know about you, but I was in many a CN party where there were no erases or dispels, or full mp gear blms MBing without staves for shit damage. The horrible hours spent there didn't make them any less gimp, and they still got the xp and moved on to the next camp only slightly slower than the better parties. There were greatsword Plds trying to tank at 75 in 05 just like there are Twilight Mnks now, stupid was always stupid.