Instanced Raids Unveiled! (06/20/2011)

[Alderaan]

I'd rather a large scale server wide event that introduces the instances and ties it in story wise with lore. Unlocking content this way is always more fun to me than some annoying "keying" you have to do before each run.

[qpoiuwer]

Nice derail lolz.

I'd hope for nyzul but i don't think they can make it as maze-like, which was a big part of the event imo (navigating and making sense of similar looking corridors). They can't simply copy the MGS of XI here either, which made the event even more fun.

But what I hope they can do is make us work in smaller teams to achieve the common goal. Even if 6 people went into nyzul, they didn't stick together all the time. Yet teamwork was still there. It gives me at least more weight and importance instead of being a part of a gray mass plowing through mobs. Fuck dynamis.

Something like a forked path where you have to activate a switch on each path to open up the boss door, but you only have enough time if you split your party in half, could be fun. But still, since 8 is the max in a party now nothing should be as bad as Dynamis was as far as 1 person not mattering at all.

[Meko]

How about some prereqs for those who aren't pussies.

CoP.

Shit yea.

[miokomioko]

Bad idea. People are generally lazy when it come to that, and long introduction quests would just make the events even less popular.

I personally like introduction quests, but from a mmo logistic standpoint, it's fucking horrible.

I completely and utterly disagree.

[Sephiroth]

How about some prereqs for those who aren't pussies.

CoP.



It's gotta represent the leveling curve imo. If the r30 dungeons have low drop rate, people might just outlevel them. And there's not much of a grind at that level in the first place.

You'll come back to do them for your other classes either way.

My ideal MMO wouldn't have dungeons that drop loot. They'd drop untradable currency based on how well you perform. You'd trade that for loot at an NPC. That way everyone is rewarded for their efforts, no loot drama, no random drop rates, no falling 10 places in your LS's DKP table because you went on holiday for a week (making you wait a year more for your turn) and currency obtained in low rank dungeons would be useful for higher rank gear. Items could still be rare, simply make the rarest items require a ton of this currency. They could still add common loot to the dungeons for craftable items but anything good require the currency. I can't see a negative to it. It would be like relic weapons except you can't trade the currency and it's awarded upon completion rather than a drop (like leve rewards).

[Hyan]

My ideal MMO wouldn't have dungeons that drop loot. They'd drop untradable currency based on how well you perform. You'd trade that for loot at an NPC. That way everyone is rewarded for their efforts, no loot drama, no random drop rates, no falling 10 places in your LS's DKP table because you went on holiday for a week (making you wait a year more for your turn) and currency obtained in low rank dungeons would be useful for higher rank gear. Items could still be rare, simply make the rarest items require a ton of this currency. They could still add common loot to the dungeons for craftable items but anything good require the currency. I can't see a negative to it. It would be like relic weapons except you can't trade the currency and it's awarded upon completion rather than a drop (like leve rewards).

The poorer the drop rate, the more horrible that kind of system would end up being.

And the better the drop rate, the more pointless the system would end up being.

I guess there's a sweet spot, but I'm not that crazy about knowing I have to clear this dungeon 30 times before getting what I want, meanwhile getting little to nothing. Instead of potentially getting the drop first time...!

Knowing "this might be the day" is a pretty good incentive at the end of the day.

[Alderaan]

My ideal MMO wouldn't have dungeons that drop loot. They'd drop untradable currency based on how well you perform. You'd trade that for loot at an NPC. That way everyone is rewarded for their efforts, no loot drama, no random drop rates, no falling 10 places in your LS's DKP table because you went on holiday for a week (making you wait a year more for your turn) and currency obtained in low rank dungeons would be useful for higher rank gear. Items could still be rare, simply make the rarest items require a ton of this currency. They could still add common loot to the dungeons for craftable items but anything good require the currency. I can't see a negative to it. It would be like relic weapons except you can't trade the currency and it's awarded upon completion rather than a drop (like leve rewards).

Pretty much what GW2 is doing. Everyone gets their own loot roll. Each party member gets their own treasure chest at the end of dungeons and open world scripted events. The focus then turns to helping people when you know they're not going to be rolling against you for anything, which is what it should be about.

[Sephiroth]

The poorer the drop rate, the more horrible that kind of system would end up being.

And the better the drop rate, the more pointless the system would end up being.

I guess there's a sweet spot, but I'm not that crazy about knowing I have to clear this dungeon 30 times before getting what I want, meanwhile getting little to nothing. Instead of potentially getting the drop first time...!

Well it wouldn't be about drop rates. When your timer runs out you get a pop up with your currency reward based on how well you perform. If you finish the dungeon in 50 minutes you'll be rewarded with say 1000 currency, but if you don't even make it to the boss and the time runs out you get 200.

Pretty much what GW2 is doing. Everyone gets their own loot roll. Each party member gets their own treasure chest at the end of dungeons and open world scripted events. The focus then turns to helping people when you know they're not going to be rolling against you for anything, which is what it should be about.

That system is nice but only if the items are untradable. I mean FFXIV works like that now. If my group kills Dodore each party member gets a roll on whether they get the Dodore Wing, but since they're tradable most LSs will have you trade it to an officer and implement DKP to decide who gets it. Problem with that even if the items are untradable is you might get an item you don't want and can't get rid of it. That's why I think purchasing from NPC with currency is better, you have some choice.

[Hyan]

Pretty much what GW2 is doing. Everyone gets their own loot roll. Each party member gets their own treasure chest at the end of dungeons and open world scripted events. The focus then turns to helping people when you know they're not going to be rolling against you for anything, which is what it should be about.

GW2 obviously doesn't have to deal with lengthening the content in any way, so of course it works.

It's all about how many items the devs want to insert to the game. Obviously if everyone gets their own item there will be a lot more items produced than if one dropped at time. Pretty much the same as if the monsters had 100% drop rate and people took turns. Which makes it quite irrelevant which method is used. Either way people are gonna be capped in no time.

Well it wouldn't be about drop rates. When your timer runs out you get a pop up with your currency reward based on how well you perform. If you finish the dungeon in 50 minutes you'll be rewarded with say 1000 currency, but if you don't even make it to the boss and the time runs out you get 200.

You need 30 runs worth of points to claim your gear. I'm simply comparing your system to the old drop rate system, do you understand? You can get the item on your 1st try, or 60th try. In your system you know you are getting it on your 30th try. Not before, not after. You don't see how that would wear someone out?

If it's a 10% drop rate to make one item produced to the game, and with your system 2 people work for the item at the same time... you would both have to do 20 runs, as that's how long it'd take to produce two items on average.

At the same time, you could go 2/2 on the drop rate system. There's a good chance you go at least 2/19, instead of 2/40. I'll take it.

Intermediate, secondary rewards on the other hand... feel free to put them on a point system.

[Sephiroth]

You need 30 runs worth of points to claim your gear. I'm simply comparing your system to the old drop rate system, do you understand? You can get the item on your 1st try, or 60th try. In your system you know you are getting it on your 30th try. Not before, not after. You don't see how that would wear someone out?

If it's a 10% drop rate to make one item produced to the game, and with your system 2 people work for the item at the same time... you would both have to do 20 runs, as that's how long it'd take to produce two items on average.

At the same time, you could go 2/2 on the drop rate system. There's a good chance you go at least 2/19.

I see your point. But it depends whether you prefer luck (random) or fixed. Sure you could get it on your first run of the dungeon but you could also get it on your 70th. In a fixed system like I describe you'd know you'll get it somewhere around your 30th. I'd opt for the latter. Maybe there's some way of pleasing both types of players, I don't know.

[Hyan]

I see your point. But it depends whether you prefer luck (random) or fixed. Sure you could get it on your first run of the dungeon but you could also get it on your 70th. In a fixed system like I describe you'd know you'll get it somewhere around your 30th. I'd opt for the latter. Maybe there's some way of pleasing both types of players, I don't know.

All I know is that when I see that the goal is so far, and there's little to aim towards inbetween, I easily give up, especially if the event itself has lost its charm. That's what work feels like.

But if there's a chance of getting the item each and every time I kill a mob or clear an objective... it drives me onwards.

But secondary rewards can be on a point system. I know all games do this to some degree.

[Lucavi]

^
They need to give people a reason to go back there more than once. Otherwise, making party for that place is going to be impossible after a few weeks.

If the combat is fun, I'll go there many times on many classes, especially if the gear is useful.

[Sirenia]

Looks nice!

[Lucavi]

Potentially it could be that you need the quest active to gain access to the instance, and while you're in the instance, you work towards completing that quest.

That would suck tremendously, and yet, with SE's obsession with not letting you into things without "key items" (its been that way forever, not just in XI), that sounds extremely (and depressingly) plausible.

[Kaylia]

I completely and utterly disagree.

I don't care if you disagree, that's why so many events in FFXI (and many other games) are forgotten. Content accessibilities is almost as important as the reward if you want it to be succesful.

People are slow, they don't read up about shit, they don't make any kind of preparation....that's why you have to keep in mine everyone when you design shit.

[miokomioko]

It looks like you are assuming I meant "difficult and/or time-consuming" when I just said "substantial."

Also, haha... posting to explain your viewpoint to me while simultaneously stating you don't care if I disagree.

[Ropeydonkey]

All I know is that when I see that the goal is so far, and there's little to aim towards inbetween, I easily give up, especially if the event itself has lost its charm. That's what work feels like.

But if there's a chance of getting the item each and every time I kill a mob or clear an objective... it drives me onwards.

But secondary rewards can be on a point system. I know all games do this to some degree.

I liked the limbus system where bosses dropped the good stuff but coins and +1 mats meant there was still a steady trickle of gear from the event. Felt like I was getting something out of it most runs for ages.

I think FFXIV is going more with the 'personal chests' route which is fine, but the drop-rates are too high everywhere. You don't get much excitement from NMs with 5min repops and 30% drop-rates... 1hr 10% drop sounds about right to me, maybe 15-20% or 45mins to make the casuals happy.

I'd love to think these new dungeons are going to be clever, somehow puzzle/objective based with multiple routes etc etc but I have a sneaky suspicion they'll be a linear slog through moderately tough mobs with (maybe) a re-skinned boss mob. I'm only this pessimistic because I really don't think its been a priority for them.

[Kaylia]

Would you consider a single awesome cutscenes to be substantial then? Your post was kinda vague.

Either way, any prerequisite is too many prerequisitse. It's fucking annoying to wait after other to start an events.

[Biggie]

Kind of a let down to see reskinned mobs, gear, weapons, and zones considering how long we have been waiting, but oh well. This may have been asked, and i'm probably just pulling a derp, but where is Silent Arbor, Tinolqa?

[Takiwaki]

About the dungeon reward thing.

As long as my time spent is not a waste of time, and there is some reward for everyone that took part, be it exp, currency toward armor, actual armor, then I will be happy. the % drop rate crap I honestly think is stupid, I want to know that if I go take part and spend 2hrs of my day doing something that I get something in return, had enough of that repetitious crap, salvage type grind, with nothing gained.