Second aid flotila bound for Gaza leaving this week

[Kuya]

The Greek government has prevented the flotila ships from sailing and they are currently locked down.

Most of the nine vessels that pro-Palestinian activists planned to sail on as part of a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in defiance of an Israeli blockade remain stranded in Greece ports, after Greek authorities forbade them from embarking on the journey.

Two vessels have been sabotaged and are currently unable to sail, while most of the others remain under the watchful eye of Greek coastguard or military personnel.

Despite their growing frustration and diminishing morale, some activists are hopeful that their Gaza Flotilla II would finally be able to make the journey and break Israel's siege on the Palestinian territory.

The Greek government, reiterating that it is committed to improving the humanitariation situation in Gaza, has offered to transport the aid in its own ships.

"Greece's stance regarding the need to lift the Gaza blockade and to improve the humanitarian conditions in the area is known and remains unchanged," the Greek foreign ministry said in a statement.

The ban on the departure of vessels was because they were "concerned primarily with the protection and safety of human life."

"Greece reiterates its willingness and proposes to undertake the task of transporting the humanitarian aid, with Greek vessels or other appropriate means, through the existing channels as requested by the Secretary General of the United Nations."

"We chose Greece because this country has a history of support for the Palestinian struggle for freedom,” he said.

"Unfortunately we did not expect the Greek government to just roll over and die. But the Middle East Quartet issued a statement against our flotilla, so I think the pressure on the Greek government just might have been too enormous for it to bear."

The Greek government put out a statement on Friday confirming that the Greek coastguard had enforced a decision by civil defence authorities to prevent all flotilla vessels from leaving Greek ports.

Also on Friday a US boat attempted to leave port and sail to Gaza, but was intercepted by the Greek coastguard who towed it back to port where it is currently detained.

The boat's captain, John Klusmire, was arrested by Greek authorities, charged with a felony, and is now in jail.

Dylan Penner is on the steering committee of the Canadian boat that is currently stuck in port on the island of Crete.

Penner told Al Jazeera that a Greek MP came to their boat on Saturday and pledged to discuss the situation in the Greek Parliament.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/eu...538534109.html

[Dimmauk]

"We chose Greece because this country has a history of support for the Palestinian struggle for freedom,” he said.

"Unfortunately we did not expect the Greek government to just roll over and die.

Also on Friday a US boat attempted to leave port and sail to Gaza, but was intercepted by the Greek coastguard who towed it back to port where it is currently detained.

The boat's captain, John Klusmire, was arrested by Greek authorities, charged with a felony, and is now in jail.

FUCKING GREEKS!! GAH!!

[Plow]

Since you and Solanis don't seem to want to ...make any actual points or demonstrate an angle other than "hey there's an easy to antagonize guy on the internet, GET 'EM!" his angle is the only one represented here.

Elvis hasn't exactly embarrassed himself here, his arguments are substantive and rational.

You're missing 3 key points here:

First: Elvis's arguments have no real point. They're 100% "Israel is bad and it should stop what it's doing." No arguments whatsoever about how it can be stopped without Hamas stopping attacking.

Secondly: If you understand the issue, you understand how entirely full of shit the majority of his arguments really are. They're constantly beyond willful ignorance.

Finally: He has a tactic that's always going to win on bg: argue in quantity, not quality. He just plain says so much bull shit that it's not even remotely worth the time to refute it, half the time it would take a paragraph per sentence to go into it.

You'll notice he instantly shies away from anything in the first half of the 20th century, because it points out the fact that this is literally a century of "DOLLY HIT ME BACK" that he's arguing for. Fuck, Kuya tried, and his argument was based on the premise that (false) rumors are justification for ethnic cleansing when we're talking about killing Israeli Jews.

[Rhinox]

You're missing 3 key points here:

First: Elvis's arguments have no real point. They're 100% "Israel is bad and it should stop what it's doing." No arguments whatsoever about how it can be stopped without Hamas stopping attacking.

Secondly: If you understand the issue, you understand how entirely full of shit the majority of his arguments really are. They're constantly beyond willful ignorance.

Finally: He has a tactic that's always going to win on bg: argue in quantity, not quality. He just plain says so much bull shit that it's not even remotely worth the time to refute it, half the time it would take a paragraph per sentence to go into it.

You'll notice he instantly shies away from anything in the first half of the 20th century, because it points out the fact that this is literally a century of "DOLLY HIT ME BACK" that he's arguing for. Fuck, Kuya tried, and his argument was based on the premise that (false) rumors are justification for ethnic cleansing when we're talking about killing Israeli Jews.

Pot meet kettle

You just summed up pretty much every argument you've had on bg

[Plow]

You know how your avatar makes that guy look reeeeeally stupid?



You should see your posts.

[Rhinox]

You know how your avatar makes that guy look reeeeeally stupid?



You should see your posts.

Burn!

Spoiler: show

really?

[solanis]

can we not

[Plow]

can we not

I don't know

maybe

[solanis]

okay I lold, carry on

[Elvis]

You're missing 3 key points here:

First: Elvis's arguments have no real point. They're 100% "Israel is bad and it should stop what it's doing." No arguments whatsoever about how it can be stopped without Hamas stopping attacking.

Secondly: If you understand the issue, you understand how entirely full of shit the majority of his arguments really are. They're constantly beyond willful ignorance.

Finally: He has a tactic that's always going to win on bg: argue in quantity, not quality. He just plain says so much bull shit that it's not even remotely worth the time to refute it, half the time it would take a paragraph per sentence to go into it.

You'll notice he instantly shies away from anything in the first half of the 20th century, because it points out the fact that this is literally a century of "DOLLY HIT ME BACK" that he's arguing for. Fuck, Kuya tried, and his argument was based on the premise that (false) rumors are justification for ethnic cleansing when we're talking about killing Israeli Jews.

What does the continued colonization of the OT have to do with Hamas rockets? Nothing. Israel is not at war with Hamas. It is at war with the Palestinian people. Why is Israel in the occupied territories expanding settlements? Why did it BUILD settlements there in the first place? Among the enemy population? What to do with all those Arabs? This is the same line of questioning someone may ask the Zionist movement during the history of Mandate Palestine.

Hamas is not on the same playing field as Israel. Whatever crimes Hamas is committing it is fractional with respect to the scope and frequency of Israeli crimes. That is a FACT. You want to equate them but you don't even break-down the back and forth if there is any presently. (There isn't.)

Hamas ceased suicide bombing years ago. Suicide bombing began in 94'. Since then, the main channel of Hamas aggression has been the rockets. Those rockets have killed 8 people in all the years since the 2nd Intifada until the Gaza massacre in 2008.

Anyone can go look at the side-by-side list of casualties. It's not a marginal difference. It's by order of 100s, 10s, etc.

Assuming Hamas is represents the Palestinians is also another premise I refuse to accept. Palestinian society is fragmented. The impetus for change cannot be expected to be put upon them. Israel has froze the assets of the PA at will. They have threatened to carry out a Cast Lead-like operation in the West Bank if the PA would not challenge the Goldstone report. Israel controls the Palestinians. The relationship is not symmetrical.

I don't shy away from any part of this conflict. Especially not the history during Mandate Palestine. I hope you're kidding.

I answered you already, dipshit. Your rebuttal was to post some asinine YouTube video. Your initial claim was that 'the Jews' (monolith) were expelled, and are simply 'returning' to the land. They were 'simply' coming home, and look at all these Arab squatters! I'd like for you to define the Kingdom of Judea's borders. Then it's demographics.

The Palestinian Arabs have been living on this land for thousands of years as well. By your insinuation, the history of 'the Jews' in it's entirety is secluded to the exodus and nothing more. Jews have lived all over the world. 3000 years is a damn long time and using that period as some kind of moral starting line is, devoid of context of course, is total bullshit.

Whereas the point I make is that the anger directed at Israel in 2011, is precisely linked to the crimes carried out by the Zionist militias and terrorist groups like Lehi, et al. in the late 40s. The ethnic cleansing has not ceased since then.

The Palestinians did not expel 'the Jews' 3000 years ago and they bare no responsibility for the Holocaust or collective Jewish suffering.

Your arguments are SPURIOUS nonsense.

You are a troll, Plow. I doubt my posts make much sense to you, precisely because you're so fucking ignorant of the history of the conflict.

It's the same reason Solanis preferred an 'academic' discussion/diversion about antisemitism.

Get the fuck out of these threads, permanently.

I'm also not filibustering or introducing red herrings into my argument. It's all related - it's just that you don't know a damn thing about the conflict and what you DO know, you get from Wikipedia.

In the end, what you do is resort to conjecture OR talk about how I *talk* about the issue instead of debating.

So, here is what I said to you:

Oh that's right, it was anti-Palestinian riots killing off Palestinians who had legally bought (back) their land for some 30 years before Israel was even established as its own state.




Oh, really? Who are the Palestinians exactly?

You mean they're *NOT* the people that took over Palestine as the Jews were kicked out?

The Roman Empire being the main source of aggression for a lot of the time means whoever wants to can just take the land afterward?

Sweet, this dude I know robbed a bank, I guess I can just go find the money and take it since it wasn't me that robbed em.



Sure, pretend that minuscule by comparison events of the last 60 years are all that matters, ignore the basic reality that people were kicked off their land and fucking bought it back, and that the fighting has deeply intensified over the last hundred years due to fear of "negative" impact on Arab nationalism, and you've almost got yourself a credible point.

Until you face the reality that the "victims" now whom are supposedly seeking peace are "offering" peace in exchange for... letting them win their war lol.

Spoiler: show

Palestine has been in use just as long as the term Israel. For example, Shemot (Exodus) 13:17 says God did not lead them [by] way of the land of the Philistines. Amos Chapter 9:7 says that the Israelites were brought up from Egypt in the same way that the Philistines and Aram were brought respectively from Caphtor and Kir. Josephus, claimed that the Jews were not a maritime people and that they inhabited the inland hill country, not the coastal plain. The Palestinians had already dispatched a delegation of representatives to Great Britain in February of 1922 that styled themselves as “Arab People of Palestine” and members of the “People of Palestine” . A distinct “Palestinian” identity had been developed long before as a result of the Egyptian siege of 1832 (more below).

Reliable sources, including Avigdor Levy, Elli Kohen, Aryeh Shmuelevitz, and Walter Weiker estimate the number of Jews in all of Syria and Palestine at about 20,000 at the beginning of the 18th century. The names of the Jewish communities implied that they did not consider themselves to be members of the same nationality, i.e. Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Romani, Misrahi, etc. The Ottoman authorities also treated them as members of different ethnic and religious sects, i.e. Surgun, Kendi Gelen, & etc. See for example Avigdor Levy, Jews, Turks, Ottomans: A Shared History, Fifteenth Through the Twentieth Century (Modern Jewish History), Syracuse Univ Pr, 2003. You keep mentioning that some Palestinians migrated into the area. If being an Ashkenazi (German) born in the United States of America doesn’t prevent you from also being a Jewish and Israeli national, then why does it matter where a “Palestinian” or “Arab” national was born? The use of that deceptive narrative by Zionists has been fully discussed in:
*Rosemary E. Shinko, “Discourses of Denial: Silencing the Palestinians, Delegitimizing Their Claims,” Journal of International Affairs 58.1 (2004);
*Baruch Kimmerling, Politicide: Ariel Sharon’s War Against the Palestinians, Verso, 2003;
*Marcelo Svirsky, “The Desire for terra nullius and the Zionist-Palestinian Conflict,” in Paul Patton and Simone Bignall (Eds.) Deleuze and the Postcolonial, Edinburgh University Press 2009.
*Lawrence Davidson, “Historical Ignorance and Popular Perception: the Case of U.S. Perceptions of Palestine, 1917,” Middle East Policy3.2 (1994): pages 125-148;
*Joyce Dalsheim, Settler nationalism, collective memories of violence and the ‘uncanny other’, Social Identities, Volume 10, Issue 2 2004 , pages 151 – 170;

The 19th century British Foreign Office Confidential Prints FO 424 and early 20th century Arab Bureau Papers FO 882 relate that the origins of the Husayni (aka al-Husseini), Khalidi, Nashashibi, ‘Abd al-Hadi, Tuqan families, and the many clans and tribes – including the Beersheba Bedouin – pre-date the first Zionist Aliya and that all of the groups had been settled there for centuries. Most of the inhabitants today can trace their ancestry to one or more of the families named in the 19th century British reports. Hashem died and was buried in Gaza 1300 years ago. His Husayni descendants moved back to the region from Allepo in the 1600s. By the early years of the 18th century the post of Mufti of Jerusalem was held by ‘Abd al-Qadir ibn Karim al-Din Husayni. He died leaving no male heir and the Hanafi mufti-ship passed on to the Jaralla and Alami families. But, ‘Abd al-Qadir’s female descendants retained the family name and their claim to sharifian (i.e. Hashemite) lineage. The notable members of that particular branch have included Yasser Arafat and his uncle, the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini.

Zionists always mention a poorly-defined region called “Eretz Yisrael”. The Torah suggests that Moses died somewhere in Transjordan because he was not permitted to enter the Promised Land. In fact, Gideon Bigger says that’s why Lloyd George used the Jordan river as the border – because Joshua and the children of Israel crossed it on their way into the land of Israel. Of course, there are other passages in the scriptures which say that all of the land between the River of Egypt and the Euphrates was included in the Promised Land or Eretz Yisrael. Judea was only a small fraction of this “Greater Eretz Yisrael”. It is a little known fact that the Sultan adopted a statute which provided for the immediate and free settlement on the best lands available, for groups of Jews between 200 and 250 families, everywhere in Greater Eretz Yisrael, except for Palestine. In 1882 the American Consul advised a group of Romanian Jews who had requested settlement in the “Pashlik of Palestine” about the ordinance and summed-up by saying “In conclusion, there is nothing to prevent all the Israelites on the earth from settling in Asiatic Turkey. They shall not settle in Palestine-that is the only prohibition. The Zionists never seriously considered settlement in the portions of Eretz Yisrael beyond the boundaries of Palestine.

Joseph Mary Nagle Jeffries, “Palestine: The Reality”, Longmans 1939, reprinted by Hyperion Press, 1975, explains that Palestine was part of the Arab homeland called “Bilad al Arab” or “Arabistan” (page 4). The ‘Arabistan Ordusu’, the provincial Ottoman Army for Arabia, was originally based at Damascus, and was put in charge of Cilicia, Syria (including Lebanon and Palestine), Iraq, and the southern Arabian Peninsula. see Stanford J. Shaw, Ezel Kural Shaw, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, Cambridge University Press, 1977, page 85; Caesar E. Farah, The Politics of Interventionism in Ottoman Lebanon, 1830-1861, I.B.Tauris, 2000, page 417. The claim that “Palestine” is only a small unimportant part of Arabia is tantamount to the claim that “Judea” was only small unimportant part of Eretz Israel.

Muhammad Ali was an Albanian mercenary who became the King of Egypt. Palestinian nationalism began long before the first Zionist Aliya when his son, Ibrahim Pasha laid siege to Palestine (in 1832) and encountered massive resistance. King Farouk of Egypt was a descendant of the Albanians and one of Napoleon’s Colonel’s. Most Egyptians consider themselves to be descendants of the ancient Pharaohs who have adopted Arab culture. Egypt lay outside the jurisdiction of the Provincial Army of Arabistan. Egypt was not part of the Arab homeland discussed by the Sharif Hussein and McMahon. It is somewhat ironic then that Egypt and King Farouk assumed the leadership of the newly formed League of Arab States. The Convention of July 1840 offered a grant to Muhammed Ali, during his natural life, of the government of the region described alternately as “Southern Syria” or “Palestine” or the Pashalik of Acre. See Index to the executive documents of the House of Representatives for the second session of the forty-fifth Congress, 1879-’80 page 1019.

2nd Part:

Article 49(6) of the Geneva Convention points out that destruction of the inhabitants as a separate people was one of the goals during WWII when some countries colonized others and displaced or deported the indigenous peoples. Raphael Lemkin coined the term genocide for the practice. It involved military attacks, occupation, and eviction with the intent of destroying the members of a targeted group as a social unit in their distinctiveness and particularity and their feeling of belonging together. A biological-physical destruction was not necessary, since forcibly transferring children of the group to some other group is considered a constituent act of the crime of genocide. The 1951 Refugee Convention recognized that principle. It stipulated that the unity of the family was the natural and fundamental group unit of society and that maintaining family unity is an essential right of the refugee. You constantly express support for the proposition that Israelis should profit from their own criminal wrongdoing at the expense of Palestinian society and families.

The Zionists have always claimed the legal right of any so-called Jew or "Jewish convert" to "return" and live anywhere within the vaguely defined borders of "Eretz Yisrael" in accordance with the biblical legends. That "right" spans at least a hundred generation gap in residency and is supposedly based upon the Balfour Declaration, the San Remo resolution, and the now-terminated League of Nations Mandate. It really doesn't matter whether a convert's family ever lived in the land during the Second Temple period thousands of years ago. (Try to find me that 3000 year old documentation, Plow)

FYI, the Israeli Supreme Court and the International Court of Justice rejected that "fascist" argument. They held that post-mandate era Jewish settlers have no inherent legal right to live in the occupied territories. See the related rulings regarding the legal rights of settlers living under regimes of belligerent occupation in the ICJ Wall case and HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al.

Children born in refugee camps abroad and dependents born on military bases overseas normally do acquire the nationality of their parents and usually do return to their countries of nationality. So, 2nd and 3rd generation refugee descendents living in camps located in Thailand, Pakistan, and Iran have been "repatriated" to Laos, Cambodia, and Afghanistan because they are members of those societies. The UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) plans to do the same thing with most of the more than one hundred thousand people from Myanmar who have been living in Thailand for more than 20 years.

[Plow]

See what I mean?

[aurik]

The irony is when a blockade is used against Gaza it's to prevent terrorism, but when a blockade is used against Israel it's justification for a preemptive war.

[Correction]

six hundred words vastly outstrips my attention span, I ain't readin' shit.

Yeah I see what you mean.

[Plow]

After taking out his quoting of me that's a 2086 word post.

[Correction]

After taking out his quoting of me that's a 2086 word post.

Don't have to say it twice, I already understood that you don't read anything.

[Dimmauk]

Who has the time to dissect his posts to see if they his posts are even factual? Israel should use his posts as a blockade.

[Elvis]

Plow's original argument consisted of spurious nonsense. He also implied that Jews were both a monolith devoid of any real history between the destruction of the Second Temple and advent of the Zionist movement.

3000 years is a long time. Hence, I tried to bridge that gap. I could have just called you a fucking moron, which would have been much more succinct. I'll remember to do that from now on.

[Elvis]

Who has the time to dissect his posts to see if they his posts are even factual? Israel should use his posts as a blockade.

Who cares, you wouldn't read either length of posts. The only thing you contribute to this thread is rabble-rabble-rabble-antisemitism-antisemitism.

[Dimmauk]

Who cares, you wouldn't read either length of posts. The only thing you contribute to this thread is rabble-rabble-rabble-antisemitism-antisemitism.

Like your linked/copy pasted posts are any better? Oh I forgot about the name calling in between those pasted walls of text posts.

[Elvis]

Like your linked/copy pasted posts are any better? Oh I forgot about the name calling in between those pasted walls of text posts.

Don't bitch about name-calling when you don't contribute anything and summarize my posts as "linked/copy pasted". You trivialize the act of CITING SOURCES. I have my own arguments. I back them up with newspaper articles and books. It's not my fault you haven't read EITHER.

You troll these threads, hence I'm calling you a troll.