Second aid flotila bound for Gaza leaving this week

[solanis]

I don't understand why you type up novels decrying me elvis, yet can't answer a question... you sure bitch a lot about indirect responses for someone who types up hundred-word rants that have nothing to do with what you quoted

also yeah he mad

[Elvis]

I've wrote about my personal opinion of an endgame for the conflict in other Israel-Palestine threads. I just didn't think it was worth replying to you considering you asked the question so late. Similarly, I didn't feel I had to answer your 'are you now, or have you ever been a member of the antisemite party' litmus test.

But yea, I think the 2SS is dead due to the continued colonization of Palestinian land. There is no territorial contiguity. The Palestinians will not accept a demilitarized Swiss-Cheese State with nothing to say about the refugees, etc. I think the end-game is apartheid in the OT, continued societal/institutional discrimination against Arabs in Israel proper and generally speaking, more suffering for the Palestinians.

It's going to get worse considering Obama has spent most of his political capital and if he is reelected, he will be walking on even thinner ice. If a Republican wins, then we'll just present a more honest policy regarding Israel without the fancy rhetoric the 'progressive' Obama displays when he visits an Arab capital.

However, if you read the Palestine papers (months ago, Al Jazeera exposed several cables between the PA and Israel and the US), the PA was willing to give up so much to play ball with Israel. Yet, still no dice. If I were Israel, I would keep whining about no partner for peace. I'd keep talking about Hamas's rockets, charter, antisemitism. All the while, keep establishing facts on the ground which will determine any and all final-status agreements.

No one is going to save the Palestinians in the American mainstream. It will come grassroots activism (BDS) which is very weak at the moment.

About the Palestine Papers:

Washington Post: 'Palestinians react angrily to al-Jazeera's 'Palestine Papers'

For Israel, the documents could prove problematic because they show the earnestness with which the Palestinians pushed for a deal, despite Israeli protestations that they have no partner for peace.

Jeremy Ben-Ami, the executive director of J Street, told the Jerusalem Post that the documents highlight "the ongoing intransigence of the Israeli government."

In a statement, Americans for Peace Now said:

These documents -- if authentic -- highlight a reality that peace process cynics have long sought to deny: Israel has a far more real "partner" than it has ever been willing to admit. The documents underscore the fact that, sadly, Israel has not capitalized on the opportunity for peace this partner represents.

The Los Angeles Times' Edmund Sanders similarly writes:

For one thing, the documents show that Palestinian leaders appeared to be far more willing to cut a peace deal than most Israelis — and even many Palestinians — believed.
In contrast to Israelis' portrayal of Palestinian leaders as rejectionists, the Palestinians come across in the papers as the side best-prepared, with maps, charts and compromises, even broaching controversial tradeoffs that went beyond what their own people were likely ready to accept.

In The Wall Street Journal, Charles Levinson writes that "Israel, meanwhile, is portrayed in the documents as slowing the Mideast peace process by turning down unprecedented Palestinian concessions."

Bottom-line:

Israel and the United States are vastly more powerful. Israel will not compromise with the Palestinians simply out of virtue. Compromise will result from international pressure and isolation (boycotting Israel in the same vein as the boycott of Apartheid South Africa). If there is no compromise, then there is going to be much of the same old back and forth between the two parties.

All this time, while we argue about Jew-hating/Hamas's refusal to recognize the 'right' of a State to exist (consider what that implies; Jewish State - Jewish majority, ethnic cleansing of the Arabs it took to get a Jewish Majority = alright)/etc. etc.

The more and more Wiki-leaks-style exposure we get, the more and more apparent it becomes how insincere Israel is about peace - and should anyone be surprised? The occupation is running smoothly. Israel has near-total control over the Palestinians. Gaza is on virtual lock-down. The United States has it's back always, so whatever denunciations it receives from NGOs or the UN or any international body is academic at best, in value and promptly swirls down the memory hole among the general Western populace.

[Plow]

holy shit elvis, just stop. the people you're arguing against here have expressed that they don't read your novels. what are you trying to prove and to who?

I actually do read them (the first time usually, at least... he has a habit of literally copypasta the same posts), it's just like...

You start reading, and you're like "ok wtf that's retarded, mental note..."

And then you finish the first paragraph and you've got like 15 things to point out how ridiculously biased and intentionally inaccurate they are, and it's just like yeah, fuck it, not gonna bother typing this shit out.


Notice how they've continued to completely dance around the first half of the 20th century even after being called out on it?

It's because this whole shit started with the fact that Jews were buying back the land they've been chased out of since the Assyrians and even before, which threatened Arab nationalism in the region, so they started killing Jews, and have continued ever since.

But, lest we forget, that's just fine since someone started some rumors that Jews were evil murderers.

[Kuya]

And then you finish the first paragraph and you've got like 15 things to point out how ridiculously biased and intentionally inaccurate they are, and it's just like yeah, fuck it, not gonna bother typing this shit out.

lol

[Plow]

See? Anything prior to 48 is off limits.


It's just not very productive, let alone fun, to discuss these kind of topics where BOTH SIDES BOTH SIDES are so completely in the wrong, because they're both just going to sit there saying over and over again that they can't possibly be wrong, because just look how wrong the other side is.

[Kuya]

I don't really care what you're discussing with elvis. The only thing people need to know about this is that the blockade on Gaza constitutes collective punishment on a group of people and is therefore illegal and immoral. The blockade of goods to Gaza by the israeli government is unnecessarily broad, and the very idea that Israel is not occupying Gaza is laughable on its face given that it controls both its sea, airspace, and what goods can come into the area.

[Elvis]

Notice how they've continued to completely dance around the first half of the 20th century even after being called out on it?

It's because this whole shit started with the fact that Jews were buying back the land they've been chased out of since the Assyrians and even before, which threatened Arab nationalism in the region, so they started killing Jews, and have continued ever since.

But, lest we forget, that's just fine since someone started some rumors that Jews were evil murderers.

I haven't ignored the history prior to 48'. In fact, I bring it up repeatedly. I've also answered this stupid generalization of yours. In the time from when I initially replied to you, you could have produced a concrete rebuttal but you didn't.

First you posted some stupid YT video and then you bowed out, returned and instead commented about my commenting! That's what an ignorant troll does.

You imply that Jews collectively had no history between the destruction of the Second Temple to the advent of the Zionist movement. 3000 years is a long time, and in between then and the first Zionist aliyah, Jews have lived all over the world.

Define the borders of the Kingdom of Judea. Provide the population demographics of this Kingdom from 3000 years ago. Tell us how in 3000 years of supposed exodus, the Jews collectively agreed on returning at some point. They didn't. The Zionist movement sought out other areas to colonize before settling on Palestine.

As I said, your arguments are spurious bullshit. Built on one gross generalization after the other. You pick the Hebron massacre and extrapolate across 60+ years in the same manner you take the destruction of the Second Temple and extrapolate it and it's consequences across 3000 years.

My original reply to Plow's faggotry:

Spoiler: show

Palestine has been in use just as long as the term Israel. For example, Shemot (Exodus) 13:17 says God did not lead them [by] way of the land of the Philistines. Amos Chapter 9:7 says that the Israelites were brought up from Egypt in the same way that the Philistines and Aram were brought respectively from Caphtor and Kir. Josephus, claimed that the Jews were not a maritime people and that they inhabited the inland hill country, not the coastal plain. The Palestinians had already dispatched a delegation of representatives to Great Britain in February of 1922 that styled themselves as “Arab People of Palestine” and members of the “People of Palestine” . A distinct “Palestinian” identity had been developed long before as a result of the Egyptian siege of 1832 (more below).

Reliable sources, including Avigdor Levy, Elli Kohen, Aryeh Shmuelevitz, and Walter Weiker estimate the number of Jews in all of Syria and Palestine at about 20,000 at the beginning of the 18th century. The names of the Jewish communities implied that they did not consider themselves to be members of the same nationality, i.e. Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Romani, Misrahi, etc. The Ottoman authorities also treated them as members of different ethnic and religious sects, i.e. Surgun, Kendi Gelen, & etc. See for example Avigdor Levy, Jews, Turks, Ottomans: A Shared History, Fifteenth Through the Twentieth Century (Modern Jewish History), Syracuse Univ Pr, 2003. You keep mentioning that some Palestinians migrated into the area. If being an Ashkenazi (German) born in the United States of America doesn’t prevent you from also being a Jewish and Israeli national, then why does it matter where a “Palestinian” or “Arab” national was born? The use of that deceptive narrative by Zionists has been fully discussed in:
*Rosemary E. Shinko, “Discourses of Denial: Silencing the Palestinians, Delegitimizing Their Claims,” Journal of International Affairs 58.1 (2004);
*Baruch Kimmerling, Politicide: Ariel Sharon’s War Against the Palestinians, Verso, 2003;
*Marcelo Svirsky, “The Desire for terra nullius and the Zionist-Palestinian Conflict,” in Paul Patton and Simone Bignall (Eds.) Deleuze and the Postcolonial, Edinburgh University Press 2009.
*Lawrence Davidson, “Historical Ignorance and Popular Perception: the Case of U.S. Perceptions of Palestine, 1917,” Middle East Policy3.2 (1994): pages 125-148;
*Joyce Dalsheim, Settler nationalism, collective memories of violence and the ‘uncanny other’, Social Identities, Volume 10, Issue 2 2004 , pages 151 – 170;

The 19th century British Foreign Office Confidential Prints FO 424 and early 20th century Arab Bureau Papers FO 882 relate that the origins of the Husayni (aka al-Husseini), Khalidi, Nashashibi, ‘Abd al-Hadi, Tuqan families, and the many clans and tribes – including the Beersheba Bedouin – pre-date the first Zionist Aliya and that all of the groups had been settled there for centuries. Most of the inhabitants today can trace their ancestry to one or more of the families named in the 19th century British reports. Hashem died and was buried in Gaza 1300 years ago. His Husayni descendants moved back to the region from Allepo in the 1600s. By the early years of the 18th century the post of Mufti of Jerusalem was held by ‘Abd al-Qadir ibn Karim al-Din Husayni. He died leaving no male heir and the Hanafi mufti-ship passed on to the Jaralla and Alami families. But, ‘Abd al-Qadir’s female descendants retained the family name and their claim to sharifian (i.e. Hashemite) lineage. The notable members of that particular branch have included Yasser Arafat and his uncle, the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini.

Zionists always mention a poorly-defined region called “Eretz Yisrael”. The Torah suggests that Moses died somewhere in Transjordan because he was not permitted to enter the Promised Land. In fact, Gideon Bigger says that’s why Lloyd George used the Jordan river as the border – because Joshua and the children of Israel crossed it on their way into the land of Israel. Of course, there are other passages in the scriptures which say that all of the land between the River of Egypt and the Euphrates was included in the Promised Land or Eretz Yisrael. Judea was only a small fraction of this “Greater Eretz Yisrael”. It is a little known fact that the Sultan adopted a statute which provided for the immediate and free settlement on the best lands available, for groups of Jews between 200 and 250 families, everywhere in Greater Eretz Yisrael, except for Palestine. In 1882 the American Consul advised a group of Romanian Jews who had requested settlement in the “Pashlik of Palestine” about the ordinance and summed-up by saying “In conclusion, there is nothing to prevent all the Israelites on the earth from settling in Asiatic Turkey. They shall not settle in Palestine-that is the only prohibition. The Zionists never seriously considered settlement in the portions of Eretz Yisrael beyond the boundaries of Palestine.

Joseph Mary Nagle Jeffries, “Palestine: The Reality”, Longmans 1939, reprinted by Hyperion Press, 1975, explains that Palestine was part of the Arab homeland called “Bilad al Arab” or “Arabistan” (page 4). The ‘Arabistan Ordusu’, the provincial Ottoman Army for Arabia, was originally based at Damascus, and was put in charge of Cilicia, Syria (including Lebanon and Palestine), Iraq, and the southern Arabian Peninsula. see Stanford J. Shaw, Ezel Kural Shaw, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, Cambridge University Press, 1977, page 85; Caesar E. Farah, The Politics of Interventionism in Ottoman Lebanon, 1830-1861, I.B.Tauris, 2000, page 417. The claim that “Palestine” is only a small unimportant part of Arabia is tantamount to the claim that “Judea” was only small unimportant part of Eretz Israel.

Muhammad Ali was an Albanian mercenary who became the King of Egypt. Palestinian nationalism began long before the first Zionist Aliya when his son, Ibrahim Pasha laid siege to Palestine (in 1832) and encountered massive resistance. King Farouk of Egypt was a descendant of the Albanians and one of Napoleon’s Colonel’s. Most Egyptians consider themselves to be descendants of the ancient Pharaohs who have adopted Arab culture. Egypt lay outside the jurisdiction of the Provincial Army of Arabistan. Egypt was not part of the Arab homeland discussed by the Sharif Hussein and McMahon. It is somewhat ironic then that Egypt and King Farouk assumed the leadership of the newly formed League of Arab States. The Convention of July 1840 offered a grant to Muhammed Ali, during his natural life, of the government of the region described alternately as “Southern Syria” or “Palestine” or the Pashalik of Acre. See Index to the executive documents of the House of Representatives for the second session of the forty-fifth Congress, 1879-’80 page 1019.

2nd Part:

Article 49(6) of the Geneva Convention points out that destruction of the inhabitants as a separate people was one of the goals during WWII when some countries colonized others and displaced or deported the indigenous peoples. Raphael Lemkin coined the term genocide for the practice. It involved military attacks, occupation, and eviction with the intent of destroying the members of a targeted group as a social unit in their distinctiveness and particularity and their feeling of belonging together. A biological-physical destruction was not necessary, since forcibly transferring children of the group to some other group is considered a constituent act of the crime of genocide. The 1951 Refugee Convention recognized that principle. It stipulated that the unity of the family was the natural and fundamental group unit of society and that maintaining family unity is an essential right of the refugee. You constantly express support for the proposition that Israelis should profit from their own criminal wrongdoing at the expense of Palestinian society and families.

The Zionists have always claimed the legal right of any so-called Jew or "Jewish convert" to "return" and live anywhere within the vaguely defined borders of "Eretz Yisrael" in accordance with the biblical legends. That "right" spans at least a hundred generation gap in residency and is supposedly based upon the Balfour Declaration, the San Remo resolution, and the now-terminated League of Nations Mandate. It really doesn't matter whether a convert's family ever lived in the land during the Second Temple period thousands of years ago. (Try to find me that 3000 year old documentation, Plow)

FYI, the Israeli Supreme Court and the International Court of Justice rejected that "fascist" argument. They held that post-mandate era Jewish settlers have no inherent legal right to live in the occupied territories. See the related rulings regarding the legal rights of settlers living under regimes of belligerent occupation in the ICJ Wall case and HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al.

Children born in refugee camps abroad and dependents born on military bases overseas normally do acquire the nationality of their parents and usually do return to their countries of nationality. So, 2nd and 3rd generation refugee descendents living in camps located in Thailand, Pakistan, and Iran have been "repatriated" to Laos, Cambodia, and Afghanistan because they are members of those societies. The UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) plans to do the same thing with most of the more than one hundred thousand people from Myanmar who have been living in Thailand for more than 20 years.

Tell me where I cited sources incorrectly or made them up entirely. I cited the Israeli government. I cited various sources going back to the 1800s. Still waiting for your reply.

[Plow]

There's no fucking denying worldwide systematic expulsion of Jews for millennia, it just so happens that it largely started there.

I'm not arguing that they have some intrinsic right to the area. They looked around for years and finally decided to BUY the shit back in the late 1800's.

They were considered a threat to nationalism in the area once people figured out what they were doing, and people started killing them and attempting to resume the expulsion yet again.

This time the Jews won, and people like you have been crying about it ever since.

[Elvis]

I'm not denying the exodus and the history of persecution. I'm saying that by isolating Jewish history to the exodus and the advent of the Zionist movement you are implying that there is NOTHING but Zionism. There was a large opposition to the Zionist movement in it's formative years. However, that obviously changed. At the same time, the movement did not always have it's eye on Palestine.

There's no fucking denying worldwide systematic expulsion of Jews for millennia, it just so happens that it largely started there.

I'm not arguing that they have some intrinsic right to the area. They looked around for years and finally decided to BUY the shit back in the late 1800's.

They were considered a threat to nationalism in the area once people figured out what they were doing, and people started killing them and attempting to resume the expulsion yet again.

This time the Jews won, and people like you have been crying about it ever since.

'THEY' refers to the Zionist movement you tampon.

And you keep saying 'THEY' bought it back. How much did they buy back? And the questions I posed to you still stand. DEFINE the borders of the Kingdom of Judea. And the ONLY and OBVIOUS implication to your retarded FOLKSY bullshit is that since 'THE JEWS' were expelled 3000 years ago (THREE-THOUSAND-YEARS-AGO); that they ('THE JEWS') are simply returning to their homeland.

'They looked around for years'? REALLY? They were searching for a Jewish homeland in BRITAIN'S AFRICAN COLONIES - then magically settled on Palestine?

Palestinian Arabs outnumbered the Jewish immigrants. They were justifiably afraid of being DISPLACED and DISPOSSESSED (and that is EXACTLY what happened, they were thrown out by Jewish militias, terrorist groups and the Zionist armies). The Nakba began before the 1948 war. The war was fought mostly inside the proposed Arab part of the partition. When the dust settled, 800K Palestinians had been ethnically cleansed. To this day, the spirit of Zionism and it's consequences for the Palestinians, is still being felt.

You keep referring to Arab nationalism, vaguely of course (being the ignorant douche that you are). Tell me Plow, what Arab States EXISTED at that time? When did the Arabs attack. Who spoke for Palestinian civil society. How interested were these Arab nationalists (again, vague, because the dumbass doesn't know who and what Arab nationalists is referring to) in defending Palestinian self-determination? ETC ETC

By all means, let's talk about Mandate Palestine. You start it off.

You do not create a Jewish State in a region that is predominantly NOT Jewish, without getting rid of the indigenous population.

You aren't even disagreeing with me at this point. You're just characterizing blatant colonialism - by in which Israel brings in Jews to the Occupied Territories - as a moral victory.

It isn't.

[Elvis]

Because Plow is too slow at replying (furiously searching Wikipedia):

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/....8ec9447970b-pi

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/....8ebd86a970b-pi

[Plow]

'THEY' refers to the Zionist movement you tampon.

Whose stated goal at the time was to buy it up legally, and whose actions were exactly in accordance with such.

And this is why I'm not bothering.

[Plow]

fuckin dirty jews and their bags of jew gold all trying to buy shit up

[Indalecia]

Wizard's First Rule

[archibaldcrane]

See? Anything prior to 48 is off limits.


It's just not very productive, let alone fun, to discuss these kind of topics where BOTH SIDES BOTH SIDES are so completely in the wrong, because they're both just going to sit there saying over and over again that they can't possibly be wrong, because just look how wrong the other side is.

I don't think anyone is arguing that rocket attacks and cross-border kidnappings are "right". Is there anything else you want to be acknowledged as "wrong"?

[Plow]

Zionism is not wrong, aggressive militant Zionism is wrong.

Elvis pretends he only has a problem with the second, then makes statements that blatantly display that he makes no discernment between the 2.

That's all I'm really arguing at this point, I've gone in depth on the main topics on more than one occasion in the past.

[quannum]

Zionism is not wrong, aggressive militant Zionism is wrong.

these aren't the same? whats the diff?

[archibaldcrane]

I think the idea that Jews need a country "for jews by jews" is kinda silly, personally, and sillier still that it must be around Jerusalem - but it's there so whatever.

[Plow]

I don't think you can fault people for saying "ok everywhere we've gone for thousands of years we've been killed/chased off, I think it's time we just bought our own place."

[archibaldcrane]

I don't think you can fault people for saying "ok everywhere we've gone for thousands of years we've been killed/chased off, I think it's time we just bought our own place."

Eh, chasing off a bunch of other people because you've been wronged...kinda faulty.

Anyway, that happened. I'm more concerned with what is happening since then.

[Plow]

Eh, chasing off a bunch of other people because you've been wronged...kinda faulty.

Anyway, that happened. I'm more concerned with what is happening since then.

You really don't get the connection?

It's still going on. They don't fucking care about the land, Israel's existence is a threat to the middle east, plain and simple. There will never be peace because they don't want it.


They (Israel) didn't start chasing them off because they've been wronged throughout history, and they don't continue to chase them off because they've been wronged in the past.

Zionists started and continue to chase them off because they CONSTANTLY TRY TO KILL THEM.