Second aid flotila bound for Gaza leaving this week

[Cloudius]

Would you consider it unreasonable to say that as long as they choose to be represented by a terrorist organization, then no?

Why is the Palestinian resistance (Hamas) being called terrorist? Aren't Israelis pulling the same shit, but with bigger guns and a uniform?

[Demosthenes11]

jesus christ how the fuck did plow accuse anyone of straw manning

[Plow]

3. Even if you voted for hamas, that has no bearing on whether you have a legal right to return to the land you were shoved from or at least receive some remuneration.

That's debatable on its own, but I don't think it's out of line to attempt to prevent it even if they do. If the Zionists really had come in violently, the Turks would have smashed them, and rightfully so.

[solanis]

Why is the Palestinian resistance (Hamas) being called terrorist? Aren't Israelis pulling the same shit, but with bigger guns and a uniform?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3100518.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...of-terror.html

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslME_62/4877_62.htm

http://www.internationalrelations.ho.../112/64009.pdf

this might help you. or are you too young to remember the years and years of daily suicide bombings and rocket launches attacking civilian spaces

[archibaldcrane]

give us back our stolen land and wealth from eastern and western europe and then we'll talk

Just wanted to confirm that your argument is rooted in stubborn hypocrisy. Cool.

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[solanis]

pretty sure I'm being super duper fair and even here archi

[Kuya]

Just wanted to confirm that your argument is rooted in stubborn hypocrisy. Cool.

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Not to mention tu quoque, especially towards people that had nothing to do with the nazis.

[solanis]

Not to mention tu quoque, especially towards people that had nothing to do with the nazis.

this might come as a surprise to you, but the nazis weren't the first group of people to try to kill the jews

[Kuya]

this might come as a surprise to you, but the nazis weren't the first group of people to try to kill the jews

Right, and what does that have to do with the blockade and the settlements?

[Demosthenes11]

only the zionists deserve a pass at what they are doing because it's been done to them many times in the last few thousand years.

wait tell me why that's not hypocrisy again

[solanis]

only the zionists deserve a pass at what they are doing because it's been done to them many times in the last few thousand years.

wait tell me why that's not hypocrisy again

I was sarcastically responding to his ridiculous logic, I'm disappointed that I have to spell it out for you and Kuya

well, disappointed for Kuya I guess

[Demosthenes11]

I was sarcastically responding to his ridiculous logic, I'm disappointed that I have to spell it out for you and Kuya

well, disappointed for Kuya I guess

so then your box is that they deserve their land back only if they didnt vote for the party that your country, which is basically at war with the party, has designated a terrorist organization

[solanis]

so then your box is that they deserve their land back only if they didnt vote for the party that your country, which is basically at war with the party, has designated a terrorist organization

deserve? lol

and no, that is not my box

[guartz]

Nobody has said it yet, so I'm gonna do it. Israeli government doesn't want a peaceful solution to Palestine because there is way too much political power associated with this conflict.

[Demosthenes11]

deserve? lol

and no, that is not my box

ok, deserve wasnt the right word. "pro-right of return" is what archi called it. what is your condition

[Elvis]

You really don't get the connection?

It's still going on. They don't fucking care about the land, Israel's existence is a threat to the middle east, plain and simple. There will never be peace because they don't want it.


They (Israel) didn't start chasing them off because they've been wronged throughout history, and they don't continue to chase them off because they've been wronged in the past.

Zionists started and continue to chase them off because they CONSTANTLY TRY TO KILL THEM.

Plow, stop assuming you know what my intentions are.

There is no such thing as an acceptable form of Zionism. Just as there is no such thing as an acceptable form of Manifest destiny. Both are simply realities of history and human nature.

However, we aren't talking about hundreds or thousands of years ago. We're talking about fairly recent times, during the advent of declarations such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Zionism purports to create a Jewish State in a region that is not Jewish predominantly.

The notion that Palestinians oppose Zionism simply because it is JEWS colonizing the land, is FUCKING STUPID.

This minority population sought to carve out a State on land that people had been living on for centuries if not thousands of years. Following the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Arab World got carved up by the Western powers.

Plow mentions that Zionism was a 'threat to Arab nationalism in the region'. No shit sherlock. The people of the region were predominantly Arab. During that period in time, many Arab States were being created.

Solanis wants to deny Palestinians the ROR because of how Jews were treated in Europe. He should use much better hasbara than that. I won't help him 'point-score' though (which I think he does naturally just as Plow, both being intellectually dishonest trolls).

The crux of Plow's argument is a simplistic view of motivations for Arab antagonism to Zionism.

They hate Jews, hence, they don't like Zionism.

It doesn't matter who he means by 'they' - the main point is the reason he gives for their opposition to Jewish settlement in Palestine.

It is natural to feel alienated and paranoid when you aspire to create your own country and you see a minority population (with backing from the superpower that is 'running' your territory at present) with similar aspirations.

The Palestinians owned the majority of the land. They compromised the majority of the population. Why wouldn't they feel threatened? They did not want to carve this land up - however, the notion that Palestinian civil society was willing to forgo living with the Jews in favor of their annihilation is bullshit. I have provided sources for this assertion in past posts.

What evidence does Plow EVER provide other than his typical simplistic presentation?

Plow doesn't know the history at all.

The first bombs planted in cafes, marketplaces, on buses were those used by Jewish terrorist groups like Lehi. These groups are still honored in Israel. There are military declarations in their honor. Palestinians are demonized as being unwilling to negotiate. I think the Palestine papers revelations (among many other things) undermines that Zionist meme.

I don't believe in calling these groups solely terrorist or solely liberation. Hamas is a legitimate leadership for the Palestinians in Gaza and functions in that capacity. They aren't carrying out attacks against Israel only.

This is a functional definition. Ignore the implications because there isn't any. Hamas is still a hindrance to progress - however, as I said it's not them who Israel is at war with. It's the Palestinian people entirely.

The SAME theme applies. Palestinians live on land Israel wants. Israel embarked on the occupation of land where this enemy population lives, 40+ years ago. They are actively colonizing this land - in violation of international law.

[Elvis]

Nobody has said it yet, so I'm gonna do it. Israeli government doesn't want a peaceful solution to Palestine because there is way too much political power associated with this conflict.

I've said this already. 2 pages ago I think.

Spoiler: show

I've wrote about my personal opinion of an endgame for the conflict in other Israel-Palestine threads. I just didn't think it was worth replying to you considering you asked the question so late. Similarly, I didn't feel I had to answer your 'are you now, or have you ever been a member of the antisemite party' litmus test.

But yea, I think the 2SS is dead due to the continued colonization of Palestinian land. There is no territorial contiguity. The Palestinians will not accept a demilitarized Swiss-Cheese State with nothing to say about the refugees, etc. I think the end-game is apartheid in the OT, continued societal/institutional discrimination against Arabs in Israel proper and generally speaking, more suffering for the Palestinians.

It's going to get worse considering Obama has spent most of his political capital and if he is reelected, he will be walking on even thinner ice. If a Republican wins, then we'll just present a more honest policy regarding Israel without the fancy rhetoric the 'progressive' Obama displays when he visits an Arab capital.

However, if you read the Palestine papers (months ago, Al Jazeera exposed several cables between the PA and Israel and the US), the PA was willing to give up so much to play ball with Israel. Yet, still no dice. If I were Israel, I would keep whining about no partner for peace. I'd keep talking about Hamas's rockets, charter, antisemitism. All the while, keep establishing facts on the ground which will determine any and all final-status agreements.

No one is going to save the Palestinians in the American mainstream. It will come grassroots activism (BDS) which is very weak at the moment.

About the Palestine Papers:

Washington Post: 'Palestinians react angrily to al-Jazeera's 'Palestine Papers'



Jeremy Ben-Ami, the executive director of J Street, told the Jerusalem Post that the documents highlight "the ongoing intransigence of the Israeli government."

In a statement, Americans for Peace Now said:



The Los Angeles Times' Edmund Sanders similarly writes:



In The Wall Street Journal, Charles Levinson writes that "Israel, meanwhile, is portrayed in the documents as slowing the Mideast peace process by turning down unprecedented Palestinian concessions."

Bottom-line:

Israel and the United States are vastly more powerful. Israel will not compromise with the Palestinians simply out of virtue. Compromise will result from international pressure and isolation (boycotting Israel in the same vein as the boycott of Apartheid South Africa). If there is no compromise, then there is going to be much of the same old back and forth between the two parties.

All this time, while we argue about Jew-hating/Hamas's refusal to recognize the 'right' of a State to exist (consider what that implies; Jewish State - Jewish majority, ethnic cleansing of the Arabs it took to get a Jewish Majority = alright)/etc. etc.

The more and more Wiki-leaks-style exposure we get, the more and more apparent it becomes how insincere Israel is about peace - and should anyone be surprised? The occupation is running smoothly. Israel has near-total control over the Palestinians. Gaza is on virtual lock-down. The United States has it's back always, so whatever denunciations it receives from NGOs or the UN or any international body is academic at best, in value and promptly swirls down the memory hole among the general Western populace.

[solanis]

ok, deserve wasnt the right word. "pro-right of return" is what archi called it. what is your condition

your solution is to open the country to palestinians and integrate them into a jewish-run nation? uh, that would be fantastic if it was even vaguely what they want, but it isn't

[Dimmauk]

It's more fun to complain about it, than actually do anything.

[solanis]

There is no such thing as an acceptable form of Zionism. Just as there is no such thing as an acceptable form of Manifest destiny. Both are simply realities of history and human nature.

"zionism" is the basic belief that jews should have a sovereign jewish nation of their own. how fucking dare you say this is never acceptable. I'm kind of laughing that you call us trolls then spout off this bullshit blatant antisemitism after crying pitifully and whining for 8 pages that you so very much aren't antisemitic