Second aid flotila bound for Gaza leaving this week

[solanis]

LOL You're such a fucking moron.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

LOL You're such a fucking hypocrite. human shields are horrible and that practice should be condemned, but they aren't child soldiers. you're dragging in irrelevant information to distract from the palestinian use of children in battle. no fucking shit both sides have violated international human rights law, moron

[Elvis]

you're laughing at how hamas takes advantage of rootless children to throw them onto the front lines of a war they've already been victimized by? yeah it's hilarious, such comedy

He is lol-ing at the lack of context in your post.

Your original claim is that Hamas employs child soldiers.

There is no such employment. There are what amounts to isolate situations. Hence, why the last AI report - as per the Wiki article - was in 2005.

There have been incidents where children attempted to carry out suicide bombings. 29 incidents, as per the article.

Furthermore, the various blurbs and studies - which you have not read - confirm that there is a cultural component to the equation.

It's as if Hamas has a wing in their military department for child soldiers. They don't. It's very specific and you have to be tremendously dishonest to not supply the context - which is what Kuya bolded in the quote (which you mostly like spastically copy/pasted without reading).

[Elvis]

LOL You're such a fucking hypocrite. human shields are horrible and that practice should be condemned, but they aren't child soldiers. you're dragging in irrelevant information to distract from the palestinian use of children in battle. no fucking shit both sides have violated international human rights law, moron

No, YOU are characterizing 29 incidents as a systematic example of CHILD SOLDIERS.

YOU, are ignoring the fact that the copy-paste job you just did STATES that Palestinian children want to carry out these acts due to feelings of vengeance and that there is a 'culture of martyrdom'.

Your implication is that Hamas INSTUTIONALIZES this policy. It does not, and the Wiki article you rely on has no proof to the contrary.

[Correction]

LOL You're such a fucking hypocrite. human shields are horrible and that practice should be condemned, but they aren't child soldiers. you're dragging in irrelevant information to distract from the palestinian use of children in battle. no fucking shit both sides have violated international human rights law, moron

This isn't some radical militant Zionist group we're talking about. This is the IDF, the military arm of the Israeli government. If they employ the same tactics as a group they mark as terrorists, they possess no more legitimate claim to the land at the root of this struggle as the Palestinians. Oops Zionism is full of hypocritical shit, sorry I didn't mean for you to accidentally agree with that sentiment. You may pick up your anti-semite badge on your way the fuck out.

[archibaldcrane]

I like that we're 20 pages deep and still haven't had much of any back and forth about the real issue of this thread:

The blockade.

Any takers?

[Correction]

The blockade.

It's illegal and amoral and only succeeds in creating an environment of desperation that engenders the kind of violent blowback the Israeli government needs to continue justifying its heartless crackdown on a largely blameless citizenry. The flotilla is meant to draw attention to this and despite it being a potentially suicidal form of protest, it's effective. Moar flotillas please.

[Elvis]

Any Israel-Palestine thread, organically turns into a discussion about everything related to the conflict.

The rationale for the blockade is to keep outsiders from supplying Hamas with weapons I think. However, in published Wiki-leaks-style cables (and by Wiki-leaks itself) - Israel has admitted to intending to keep the Gazan population on the brink of total collapse.

This blockade is meant to compel the Palestinian population to renounce Hamas. It is a form of collective punishment. Israel regularly carries out tactics of collective punishment since it is at war with populations and not the factions, terrorists, etc. who represent them.

In the 2006 Lebanon War, Israel decimated Southern Lebanon.

The US Army War College report states that they could not find any systematic usage of human shields by Hezbollah. During the war, pro-Israel types were constantly harping on this meme. They said the reason so many civilians were dying was because Hezbollah uses civilians as human shields. There were some recycled photos of rockets propped up in houses and such.

However, all the main NGOs, and even Establishment groups could not find evidence correlating supposed usage of human shields to the civilian death count. One aspect of the level of destruction waged on South Lebanon has been termed the 'dahiya doctrine'. Named after the location in Lebanon.

Here, because solanis is lazy, and it's 1:30 AM - the Wiki entry:

Dahiya doctrine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

The Dahiya doctrine is an Israeli doctrine of military strategy pertaining to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence.[1] Employed by the Israel Defense Forces, the doctrine is named after a Hizbullah stronghold in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the IDF during the 2006 Lebanon War.[2]

[...]The 2009 Goldstone Report makes several references to the Dahiya doctrine, calling it a concept which requires the application of "widespread destruction as a means of deterrence" and which involves "the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations." The Fact Finding Mission which submitted the Report concluded that the doctrine had been put into practice during Operation Cast Lead.[1]

Critics have argued that the Dahiya Doctrine falls under the definition of terrorism. For example, according to Princeton University professor of International Law, Richard Falk, under the doctrine, "the civilian infrastructure of adversaries such as Hamas or Hezbollah are treated as permissible military targets, which is not only an overt violation of the most elementary norms of the law of war and of universal morality, but an avowal of a doctrine of violence that needs to be called by its proper name: STATE TERRORISM." [6]

Similarly, in Gaza, when Israel carried out Operation Cast Lead, there was tremendous destruction to the civilian infrastructure. Not surprising considering it was IN civilian areas that the operation took place. 1300-1400 people died. 300 children among them. In the Goldstone Report, you can find evidence of systematic targeting of civilian infrastructure and cases of intentional targeting of civilians.

[solanis]

Ok. First:

I said Hamas is not solely a terrorist organization. They have carried out terrorist attacks and no one is disputing this. The point I make is that the term is mostly political. Israel kills far more children - by a factor of TEN. Want me to bring those statistics up? Or being ISRAELI, you surely know about B'Tselem?

as has been said so many times, there is a difference between strategic deployment of children and unintended casualties of war. let's see what your prime minister had to say not too long ago:

Hamas gunmen used Palestinian children as human shields, and established command centers and Kassam launch pads in and near more than 100 mosques and hospitals during Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip last year, according to a new Israeli report being released on Monday that aims to counter criticism of the IDF.
According to a previously undisclosed interrogation of a Hamas operative, one Hamas cell transported rockets on the back of a wagon in which children were also sitting. In other cases, the Hamas operative said, Hamas fighters disguised themselves as women carrying babies to ensure that they would not be hit by IDF troops.

The intelligence information is backed up by videos, including one declassified air force video from January 6, 2009, which shows a terrorist shooting at troops from the roof of a building. After spotting an Israeli aircraft, the terrorist goes to the building’s entrance and calls to nearby civilians to help him escape. A few moments later, a group of children arrive at the entrance to the home and the terrorist walks out.

Another video from January 13 shows a senior Hamas terrorist – spotted by an aircraft – walking by himself down a street. After spotting the aircraft, the senior terrorist runs over to an elderly woman walking nearby and continues walking next to her. Later, the IDF discovered that the “elderly woman” was really a Hamas operative in disguise.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?ID=171009

Hamas has not institutionalized the training/deployment - and OVERALL USE - of child soldiers. There, I'm going further than I did before. Find me evidence that they do. Provide those numbers.

you want numbers? let's play with numbers.

Hamas is reporting record turnouts for its summer camps for children in 2011.

The 'summer camps,' combining Islamic indoctrination, paramilitary training, and social activities are set to begin again this year as United Nation’s summer camps, considered competition by Hamas, are being openly denigrated by jihadists.

Children and adolescents are an important target demographic for Hamas, from which its future army of terrorists will be recruited. Summer camps are an important means for indoctrinating Gaza's youth with Hamas' jihadist ideology.

In 2010 Hamas ran camps for an estimated 100,000 campers, a number similar to 2009. The Islamic Jihad terror group ran 51 camps with 10,000 participating boys and girls.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2733698/posts

Masked men trashed a U.N. summer camp Monday, tying up guards and slashing tents and an inflatable pool in the second such attack blamed on suspected extremists in just over a month -- a sign of how, in Gaza, youth camp is not just about crafts and volleyball.

Rival day camps by the United Nations and Gaza's Islamic militant Hamas rulers compete for the hearts of the next generation, the roughly 700,000 children under 15 who make up nearly half of the Gaza Strip's population.

Hamas camps teach an anti-Israeli doctrine and military-style marching, along with horseback riding, swimming and Islam. U.N. camps try to instill hope in a better future, a message wrapped in fun and games.

The U.N. says it hopes to help shield Gaza's children against the lure of militancy, a task that's getting harder in the impoverished territory. Educators say today's children are more vulnerable than the previous generation, having witnessed war with Israel last year, internal Palestinian fighting and the violent Hamas takeover in 2007, followed by an Israeli-Egyptian blockade that has virtually cut Gaza off from the outside world.

"Time is against us," warned local U.N. chief John Ging. "We are losing an entire generation."

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010...tethru1115-un/

This is part of Palestinian culture - not substantial, because like the vast majority of Palestinians, the resistance is non-violent.

If the UN recognizes Palestine, 76 percent of Palestinian Arabs said their security forces must immediately exert control over all of Judea, Samaria and the eastern half of Jerusalem, even at the risk of open warfare with the Israeli army.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Nachric...S/Default.aspx which comes from the results of a poll from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Opinion (http://www.pcpsr.org/) which has lots of great information on exactly this topic.

let's talk about hamas' treatment of women, elvis. what do you have to say about that?

[guartz]

Solanis, do you read what you post? That article specifically says "The U.N. says it hopes to help shield Gaza's children against the lure of militancy, a task that's getting harder in the impoverished territory. Educators say today's children are more vulnerable than the previous generation, having witnessed war with Israel last year, internal Palestinian fighting and the violent Hamas takeover in 2007, followed by an Israeli-Egyptian blockade that has virtually cut Gaza off from the outside world."

[solanis]

Solanis, do you read what you post? That article specifically says "The U.N. says it hopes to help shield Gaza's children against the lure of militancy, a task that's getting harder in the impoverished territory. Educators say today's children are more vulnerable than the previous generation, having witnessed war with Israel last year, internal Palestinian fighting and the violent Hamas takeover in 2007, followed by an Israeli-Egyptian blockade that has virtually cut Gaza off from the outside world."

children are negatively impacted by war? children impacted by traumatic events are susceptible to violent rhetoric? what about these basic psychological concepts goes against the fact that child soldiers have been used by hamas on many occasions, and that they promote a culture of violent resistance among the youth population? all your quote shows is that hamas is eager to take advantage of the suffering of those children to recycle them in the war. all the children involved in this war are victims of their parents' aggression.

[guartz]

I can't believe you are unintentionally this dense.

[bechyni]

How in the fuck has four pages of this shit happened in 3~ hours

[Elvis]

as has been said so many times, there is a difference between strategic deployment of children and unintended casualties of war. let's see what your prime minister had to say not too long ago.

you want numbers? let's play with numbers. which has lots of great information on exactly this topic.

let's talk about hamas' treatment of women, elvis. what do you have to say about that?

First:

About those summer camps:

Summer Camp Teaches U.S. Teens To Fight Israeli Style
Jewish-American teenagers can sign up for an eight-week training course run by the Israel Defense Forces where they fire weapons, live in military barracks and saunter around in an Israeli military uniform.

http://www.alternet.org/world/64100/

IDF summer youth program sees highest enrollment in seven years

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=68192

In both cases, army training. Weapons training. In the latter, the minimum age is 14 years. I believe the term used is 'army training'.

At this point, we are 'point scoring' and I don't want to drag myself to your level. It's easy to google this stuff. Takes 2 minutes tops.

There is no systematic usage of child soldiers. There is no institutionalized policy. There is a culture of martyrdom among Palestinians in the sense that they idealize what they consider to be 'the resistance'.

That to me is only natural. However, there is no policy of employing children as SOLDIERS. There were 29 cases of child suicide bombers. Do you have anything else?

Grooming kids toward militancy is happening on both sides, that's quite apparent. I'd like to compare to what degree it happens on both sides though. Military service is compulsorily in Israel. You serve in the territories. The military is idealized. It's part of Israeli culture. The daily humiliation Palestinians suffer by 18-year-old IDF soldiers or the lack of accountability among the IDF when a Palestinian lodges a complaint (Yesh Din studies) is more profound to me than 29 cases of child suicide bombers.

I can present systematic evidence of lack of accountability on part of the IDF in the OT. I can't link it directly with the age of the soldiers though. I can say, however, that I believe the young age of these soldiers surely plays a role. Being young, being given that power over an entire people should correlate to some degree.

http://www.yesh-din.org/cat.asp?catid=2

Despite their legal obligations, the reality is that Israeli security forces in the West Bank frequently participate or stand idly by while violence against Palestinians is being committed. Behind this indifference is a pervasive culture of impunity that is maintained by the various Israeli authorities operating in the West Bank.

Most cases of violent crimes against Palestinians not only go unpunished - but often are completely ignored by the authorities. This is a blatant violation of the human rights of Palestinian civilians living in the West Bank and of Israel's duties under International Humanitarian Law.

I don't know why you keep implying I am white-washing Hamas's crimes.

They are Islamists, and all that follows is self-explanatory. My point is that they are NOT the Taliban. If you want to debate me, debate what I'm saying and not something imaginary.

If you have something to say about the extremism of Hamas with respect to the Taliban, then say it. If not, shut the fuck up with your diversions.

Yes, Hamas is Hamas.

To summarize:

Hamas is not simply a terrorist group. They have carried out terrorist attacks in the past in the form of suicide bombing.

They also function in Gazan civil society and were democratically elected. There is a cultural component to their election - religion and resistance. Hamas was seen as 'the resistance' whereas the PA as collaborators.

There are not many options for the Palestinians, so I do not think that Hamas would be the popular choice - in and of themselves. It's more like they win out, in a relative sense.

[solanis]

oh believe me, I understand your logic. palestinian children are emotionally brutalized by the war, so it's israel's own fault for creating a situation that hamas could take advantage of. israel is to blame for hamas-trained militaristic palestinian youths. I gotcha.

How in the fuck has four pages of this shit happened in 3~ hours

just when you thought things were quieting down, kuya bumped the thread

[Elvis]

children are negatively impacted by war? children impacted by traumatic events are susceptible to violent rhetoric? what about these basic psychological concepts goes against the fact that child soldiers have been used by hamas on many occasions, and that they promote a culture of violent resistance among the youth population? all your quote shows is that hamas is eager to take advantage of the suffering of those children to recycle them in the war. all the children involved in this war are victims of their parents' aggression.

Stop saying this stupid shit over and over.

Palestinians are not impoverished or in general, suffering, due to some natural disaster.

There economic situation is directly related to the DE-DEVELOPMENT of the Gazan economy, through years of occupation. It's due specifically to the nature of the conflict - COLONIALISM.

We can get into the specifics OR we can 'point-score' and Google articles, which is what you CLEARLY prefer.

[Elvis]

oh believe me, I understand your logic. palestinian children are emotionally brutalized by the war, so it's israel's own fault for creating a situation that hamas could take advantage of. israel is to blame for hamas-trained militaristic palestinian youths. I gotcha.


just when you thought things were quieting down, kuya bumped the thread

Poor you, chained to your computer, forced to read Kuya's thread. You're SO oppressed!

[Elvis]

Just to put a nail in the coffin:

IDF summer youth program sees highest enrollment in seven years

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=68192

Excerpt:

The Gadna training distinguishes Chetz V'Keshet from other Israel youth programs, a Hebrew Scouts Movement official said. Counselors are commanders or Education Corps soldiers. They "wear uniforms and carry guns all the time, so the kids see the IDF represented," Lis said. Participants call counselors by titles like "my commander" rather than by name, said Yaron Grindi, 41, a Chetz V'Keshet counselor for three years. Grindi described some of the Gadna activities: learning to shoot; hiking while carrying a large water jug, which stands in for a wounded comrade; and being woken up to conquer hills and "fight your enemy" at 3 a.m. Grindi said the training instills "personal values" such as, "If I have a target, stick with it," that such training extended to "all ways of life."

Some wonder if the program's military emphasis might be problematic. "The question is whether there's some kind of political agenda," said Yariv Oppenheimer, director-general of Peace Now in Tel Aviv. "But if people want to serve in the IDF, and want to come to Israel for that reason, then I see no problem with that," he said.

[solanis]

Just to put a nail in the coffin:

IDF summer youth program sees highest enrollment in seven years

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=68192

Excerpt:

I had a reply to the rest of your novel typed up and then closed the window. it's too late at night to type it up again, but suffice it to say, it's hilarious you're complaining about "point scoring" when you've been almost exclusively linking to articles from biased sources about individuals or isolated incidents, just nobody has bothered to read your tinfoil hat bullshit for long enough to call you out for it. you were even doing it on the first page, hypocrite. as for this link, you've conveniently left out:

The program brings together youths aged 14-18 from Israel and the Diaspora. This year's version, the 25th, began on June 26. Almost 300 participants will undergo a week of Gadna army training and tour Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, the Galilee, the Golan and Druse villages, officials said. Participants also hike Masada and the Ramon Crater, and pick onions for the poor. These activities aim "to strengthen self-reliance, Jewish identity, connection to the State of Israel and contact with the Jewish Diaspora," the IDF said in a statement.

my goodness, 300 kids from israel and the diaspora attending a military camp? this is surely comparable to the hundreds of thousands of children in hamas' military camps, and naturally it evens out the tens of thousands in various palestinian terrorist group indoctrination camps! well played, elvis. nail in the coffin indeed.

[Kuya]

Not liking the whole tit-for-tat the discussion has somehow further devolved to.

[Elvis]

I had a reply to the rest of your novel typed up and then closed the window. it's too late at night to type it up again. as for this, you've conveniently left out:

my goodness, 300 kids from israel and the diaspora attending a military camp? this is surely comparable to the hundreds of thousands of children in hamas' military camps, and naturally it evens out the tens of thousands in various palestinian terrorist group indoctrination camps! well played, elvis.

There are several summer camps running in Gaza.

The last figure I saw quoted for the Hamas-run camp, was 50,000.

There is also a camp run by UNRWA, with 250,000 participants. Others exist.

The point we are arguing is grooming young people towards militancy. It need not manifest solely at a summer camp. It's just the example we're using.

Military service is required in Israel. Israel is occupying another people. What could be a better sociological experiment (certainly better than a summer camp) than having 18 year-olds herd Palestinians through checkpoints, stand idly by while the same Palestinians are abused by other soldiers or by settlers, etc. etc. so on and so forth? All of these crimes go virtually unpunished.

No accountability. When you see this happening, what message does it send? That Palestinians can be abused without reproach.

You keep attaching the label of terrorist onto Hamas, to imply that when Hamas runs a camp of this nature it is worse. It's not. The issue we argued earlier was whether or not Hamas was a terrorist group solely. My point is that the definition should be operational.

It should be functional and not political. An example of how one uses that label politically is right above in fact. You characterize them as terrorist when referring to THEIR summer camp. Even though the same basic problem is occurring across the divide - it is somehow WORSE that Hamas is grooming the youth of Gaza for militancy.

I think Palestinians would still be militant without Hamas. They don't need Hamas, to despise Israel. Hamas is simply a conduit. It is an unfortunate outlet for them.

That is why the UN is trying to step in and take that energy in another direction. However, as long as there is an occupation - then this cycle will persist. The occupation is the source of this militancy.