Second aid flotila bound for Gaza leaving this week

[bechyni]

Let's hit enter after every sentence we type.

[solanis]

stuff

this is a little block-of-textish, but no one is actually reading this shit so w/e

israel has compulsory service because it has to. let's engage in a thought experiment and say that suddenly, there is no compulsory service, and the israeli military downsizes significantly. what happens? another six-days war, but this time it ends with the extermination of israeli jews and leaves a charred patch of land for the palestinians to enjoy.

other highly conflicted nations have compulsory service, like south korea. it doesn't contribute to a militaristic youth population, aside from their love of fancy military-style jackets, but I'm sure that's a deep-rooted sociopattern with its basis in their internalized and indoctrinated hatred of the north. I'd like to see a breakdown of what % of the conscripted base actually has contact with palestinians, since the majority of non-career IDF forces do mundane shit like police work.

additionally, extremism and hawkish views are a minority opinion among the israeli youth. I know right-wing views have grown more popular, but they still account for no more than a third or fourth of the general young population. the rest of them are shockingly moderate for having been raised in a war zone. I can pull up exact numbers for you if you like.

you've been consistently using a top-down approach throughout this thread, arguing that since israel has the bigger guns they're the badder bullies. but now that it's pretty clear that indoctrinated violent rhetoric is much more prevalent in palestinian organizations, suddenly scale doesn't matter?

additionally, it doesn't matter how hamas is trying to rebrand itself. as long as the people who were responsible for the suicide bombings are part of the organization, no developed country will take them seriously as a political organization and they will remain a terrorist front. if hamas was serious about being a productive group, they would elect a president who would stop glorifying the deaths of palestinian children and stop promoting martyrdom, they would get rid of everyone involved in terrorist attacks in the past or present, and they would rename themselves. however, can an organization founded of terrorist principles (please don't argue with me about their charter, you will look bad) become a legitimate political party? I think palestinians would be better served to have hamas fade away as a relic of a violent, bomb-strapped past.

Let's hit enter after every sentence we type.

makes a novel out of a novella, and we all know how much elvis loves to write novels

[Elvis]

this is a little block-of-textish, but no one is actually reading this shit so w/e

israel has compulsory service because it has to. let's engage in a thought experiment and say that suddenly, there is no compulsory service, and the israeli military downsizes significantly. what happens? another six-days war, but this time it ends with the extermination of israeli jews and leaves a charred patch of land for the palestinians to enjoy.

What the fuck is *wrong* with you?

I never said Israel should demilitarize you troglodyte freak. I am talking about the issue at hand - grooming young people for militancy.

My point is that I find it much more profound that Israel does this than Hamas. For logistical reasons such as having a full-fledged army.

As I said to the other psychopath (cleveland-something) - get over yourself or see a fucking psychiatrist.

[...]other highly conflicted nations have compulsory service, like south korea. it doesn't contribute to a militaristic youth population, aside from their love of fancy military-style jackets, but I'm sure that's a deep-rooted sociopattern with its basis in their internalized and indoctrinated hatred of the north. I'd like to see a breakdown of what % of the conscripted base actually has contact with palestinians, since the majority of non-career IDF forces do mundane shit like police work.

Other nations, and in this example S. Korea - are not carrying out a 40+ year military occupation.

They aren't actively stealing someone's land and resources. They aren't actively ethnically cleansing them. They aren't exerting virtual total control over this other peoples' daily lives.

ETC ETC

[...]additionally, extremism and hawkish views are a minority opinion among the israeli youth.

What do you base this belief on? Do you have any studies, like surveys and such. Opinion polls? Nope. More folksy conjecture.

Jewish nationalism is top priority for Israeli youth

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Ar...ID=214885&R=R1

Jewish nationalism – and not democracy – emerged as the most important objective for Israel’s youth in 2010, according to research featured in a new book by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, published last week.

Entitled All of the Above – Israeli Youth: Identity Paradoxes, the book, written in cooperation with the Macro Center for Political Economics, includes in-depth Dahaf Institute research carried out last summer on the attitudes and beliefs of some 1,600 young people – “both Arabs and Jews” – living here.

Among the questions addressed to the 800 teens (aged 15 to 18), and 800 youths (21 to 24), was a series relating directly to the rule of law and governance in this country.

Asked to rate what was important and unimportant in terms of running the country, democracy came in only third place, with 14.3 percent seeing it as essential to the state; while 26% of Jewish respondents said that Jewish nationality was the most important factor.

The majority of Jewish youths questioned by the poll also emphasized the need for a strong leadership, over the rule of law.

In addition to examining attitudes and values regarding Zionism, democracy and national institutions, the study also probed opinions and values regarding the treatment of minorities in Israel, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the Holocaust.

“The results show the near future of Israeli society,” said the publishers in a statement.

“The opinions and values of the youth can be used as a seismometer for detecting social change and future developments.”

Examining attitudes of young Jewish Israelis toward Arab-Israelis, and vice versa, the study found that close to half of Israel’s Jewish youth were supportive of the notion of revoking the basic political rights (such as election to the Knesset) of the country’s Arab population.

Asked whether they believed the statement “Most Arabs do not accept Israel’s right to exist and would destroy us if they could,” close to half said that it was “highly likely.”

Within the Arab-Israeli community, attitudes were equally disparaging, with the majority of Arab teens and youths saying they did not feel in any way part of Israeli society. Indeed, only 18% of the 15-18 age group, and 19% among the 21-24 yearolds, felt otherwise.

On the question of whether Jews and Arabs could live side by side in the same neighborhoods, both communities said it was not desirable, and not important. Only a handful of respondents showed a willingness to do so.

On a positive note, most of the youths surveyed said they supported peace negotiations with the Palestinians – but rejected compromises, preferring the existing situation.

YNET - 46% of Israeli teens: Revoke Arabs' rights
Friedrich Ebert Foundation's Youth Study reveals Israel's teens think greatest threat to state is Jewish-Arab conflict, believe less in democratic values. As for who they trust most - IDF gets 93%

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...050228,00.html

A new study examining Jewish and Arab Israeli teens' opinions on a wide range of issues shows nearly half of Jewish youths support revoking Arab-Israelis' basic rights.

The study focused on such issues as nationalism, democracy and attitudes towards State institutions.

The results: Israeli teens in 2010 believe less in democracy, are inclined towards rebelliousness and violence, are more racist and some have given up hope for peace. They are also more right-wing and patriotic.

[...]In total, 1,600 teens from two age groups – 15-18 and 21-24 were interviewed.


Each age group included 600 Jewish and 200 Arab interviewees. The study's conclusions, presented by the Dachaf Public Opinion Research Institute directed by Dr. Mina Tzemach, are available in a book which will be published Thursday.

[...]When it comes to State institutions, the IDF received Israeli teens' virtual complete trust (93%). Surprisingly, the survey shows that more teens trusted politicians in 2010 – from 38% in 1998 to 43% in 2010.


Analysis of the data shows that a majority of Israel's youth (42%) believe that the Jewish-Arab conflict is the biggest threat to the State of Israel, compared with 23% that claimed that the schism between religious and secular Jews is the most dangerous.

41% of Israel's Jews favour segregation
· Poll reveals widespread anti-Arab sentiment
· Academics warn of racism 'becoming mainstream'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/mar/24/israel

A poll of attitudes among Israel's Jews towards their country's Arab citizens has exposed widespread racism, with large numbers favouring segregation and policies to encourage Arabs to leave the country.

The poll found that more than two-thirds of Jews would refuse to live in the same building as an Arab. Nearly half would not allow an Arab in their home and 41% want segregation of entertainment facilities.

The survey also found 40% of Israel's Jews believe "the state needs to support the emigration of Arab citizens", a policy advocated by some far-right parties in the run-up to next week's general election.

[...]Among the poll's other findings was that 63% of Jewish Israelis consider their country's Arab citizens a "security and demographic threat to the state". Some 18% said they felt hatred when they heard someone speaking Arabic, and 34% agreed with the statement that "Arab culture is inferior to Israeli culture".

An Arab-Israeli member of parliament, Taleb el-Sana, said he was not surprised by the findings.

"This shows we're not talking about a few people, but rather, a worrying phenomenon that places question marks over the Zionist movement," he said.

Mr Sana said polls that show anti-Semitism in other countries are greeted in Israel with a frenzy of denunciations.

"Yet when it happens at their home, they're quiet, and that's why this is a two-fold failure - they are racist, and they're also not attempting to address their own racism," he said.

Keep in mind, that is concerning Israel's Arab population, not the Palestinian Arabs in the OT. Much worse, considering the Israeli Arabs are citizens of Israel.

you've been consistently using a top-down approach throughout this thread, arguing that since israel has the bigger guns they're the badder bullies. but now that it's pretty clear that indoctrinated violent rhetoric is much more prevalent in palestinian organizations, suddenly scale doesn't matter?

Wrong, I believe Israeli youth are MUCH more indoctrinated than Palestinian youth.

There is no comparison.

Palestinian society is fragmented. There is no territorial contiguity in Palestinian society. The occupation casts a shadow on Palestinian identity.

As I have said, there is no need for Hamas with respect to militant tendencies. The occupation is enough. The colonialism is enough. Hamas is just a negative outlet.

They nurture that behavior in exactly the same manner as Israel does with one such mechanism - the summer camps. However, on the original point - Hamas does not recruit child soldiers systematically.

Your first problem was defining what child soldiers entailed. There were 29 cases of suicide bombings or preventions, carried out by minors. Is the kind of child soldier program that you imply similar to that practiced by militants in Africa? No.

What we have here are essentially revenge-attacks. There is no long-term deployment. Its quite literally those 29 cases.

additionally, it doesn't matter how hamas is trying to rebrand itself. as long as the people who were responsible for the suicide bombings are part of the organization, no developed country will take them seriously as a political organization and they will remain a terrorist front.

If that is your rationale then the entire Israeli government should be classified as 'terrorist'.

Israel honors it's terrorist past.

British anger at terror celebration
The commemoration of Israeli bombings that killing 92 people has caused offence

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle690085.ece

Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”

The 'Lehi ribbon' - an Israeli military decoration:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...LehiRibbon.jpg

There is also a Hagana ribbon as well.

Many Israeli politicians had been members of the Jewish terrorist groups of Mandate Palestine. Prime Ministers. Does this need to be elaborated on? Are you so ignorant of your own history?

The conclusion is that 'developed countries' will certainly take Israel seriously in spite of it's history of supporting and glorying terrorism; in spite of electing former terrorists.

Using your definition, let's both condemn the entire Israeli government as terrorist.

And on 're-branding' (even though I made no such claim; Hamas is not rebranding. They are not solely a terrorist organization in my opinion according to the explanation I gave.):

Jewish guerrillas told British: quit Palestine or die
Fighters were led by future Israeli premier

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4360655.ece

A pamphlet warning Britons to leave the Middle East or face death has come to light in a stash of illicit propaganda.

The document does not hail from Basra or Baghdad, nor was it penned by the Islamists of al-Qaeda or the al-Mahdi Army. It was found in Haifa, about 60 years ago, and it was issued by the underground group led by Menachem Begin – the future Prime Minister of Israel and winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

The document, which surfaced at an auction house this week, is addressed to “the soldiers of the occupation army” and aimed at British soldiers serving in Palestine, then under the British Mandate, preceding the establishment of Israel in 1948. The print has faded and the paper has discoloured since it was unearthed from a grove of trees in Haifa in the summer of 1947. Yet the language and the concerns remain current.

Bombings and murders by underground groups, such as Begin’s Irgun, hastened the British withdrawal and the United Nations declaration that led to the founding of modern Israel.

Irgun propaganda targeted the British Army’s wavering morale, already dented by the bomb attack on the Mandate’s headquarters – the King David Hotel in Jerusalem – which killed 91 people.

In the document, Irgun tells British troops: “It is unavoidable that many Jewish soldiers and many British soldiers should fall. And it is only fair that these people know at least why they may be killed.”

It adds: “Most of you have been in this country for quite a long time. You have learned what the word ‘terrorist’ means, some of you may even have come into direct contact with them (and heartily desire not to repeat the experience). But what do you know about them? Why does a young man go underground?”

It then draws a parallel with what would have happened if, seven years earlier, Britain had been overrun by Nazi Germany. “Remember 1940. Then it seemed quite possible that your island country would be conquered and subjugated by Hitler hordes . . . what would you have done? Would you have gone underground?” The pamphlet says that the occupation is “illegal and immoral” and “parallel to the mass assassination of a whole people”, in language that echoes that used on a note pinned to the booby-trapped bodies of two British intelligence officers executed by Irgun that same summer...

Conclusion:

I do not write diversions about antisemitism. I do not straw-man and I certainly don't write red herrings.

You're not lazy enough to spam this thread with your bullshit about antisemitism but apparently cannot read my posts in their entirety.

Hence, you're an ignorant troll, who relies on Wikipedia to construct an argument about the country he lives in. Pathetic!

[solanis]

jesus fucking christ elvis, you've been told over and over again in this thread from both sides of the fence to stop with the conspiracy-theory bolding/fonts and multi-thousand word responses. knock it the fuck off, I'm NOT reading several page scrolls of misleading highlighting to prove some autistic fuckhead on the internet wrong.

meanwhile, two out of three of your sources are articles about the same report, filled with quotes from arabs, and the third is a survery of adults which has no bearing on the current discussion

According to the data, the importance of democracy as a national goal among Israeli teens has dropped from second place in 1998 (26%) to third place in 2010 with just 14.3%. Meanwhile, the importance of "Jewishness" as a national goal has climbed from third place (18.1% in 1998) to first place in 2010 with 26%.

Asked how they feel when they think of Arabs, 25% responded with "hate" and 12% responded with "fear".

these are all the rational responses of kids growing up in a war zone. in fact, these numbers are shockingly low, which we can show by pulling up similar opinion polls of youths in other war-ravaged countries to see what they think.

you keep arguing over and over that hamas is just a negative outlet; REMOVE THE NEGATIVE OUTLET instead of blindly defending it. it doesn't matter if you don't think they are "solely a terrorist organization" since almost the entire developed world disagrees with you, and the only reason countries like russia don't class it as terrorist is because they were elected, which is of course an interesting argument from them and I would love to see you defend it so we can have a talk about your claims that israel's actions are illegal.

[Correction]

filled with quotes from arabs

...what?

[Elvis]

jesus fucking christ elvis, you've been told over and over again in this thread from both sides of the fence to stop with the conspiracy-theory bolding/fonts and multi-thousand word responses. knock it the fuck off, I'm NOT reading several page scrolls of misleading highlighting to prove some autistic fuckhead on the internet wrong.

meanwhile, two out of three of your sources are articles about the same report, filled with quotes from arabs, and the third is a survery of adults which has no bearing on the current discussion

these are all the rational responses of kids growing up in a war zone. in fact, these numbers are shockingly low, which we can show by pulling up similar opinion polls of youths in other war-ravaged countries to see what they think.

you keep arguing over and over that hamas is just a negative outlet; REMOVE THE NEGATIVE OUTLET instead of blindly defending it. it doesn't matter if you don't think they are "solely a terrorist organization" since almost the entire developed world disagrees with you, and the only reason countries like russia don't class it as terrorist is because they were elected, which is of course an interesting argument from them and I would love to see you defend it so we can have a talk about your claims that israel's actions are illegal.

You're pathetic. Don't reply to me if you won't address what I said.

This is just an excuse for you to instantly respond to me, and save face.

The statistics are not low. The demographic that the Israeli youth are expressing hate towards are the Israeli Arabs. Their fellow citizens.

Israel chooses to occupy and colonize. It is not forced upon you. Thus, to excuse the racism as a product of war, while simultaneously disregarding the same effect of war on Palestinian society is both morally repugnant and hypocritical.

You don't give a shit about the findings of these reports. If you did, then you wouldn't be spa ming your blanket dismissal of Hamas as a terrorist group and only a terrorist group. Furthermore, when I made the point that the occupation and all that abuse and humiliation and criminality that it entails engenders militancy in Palestinian youth - you were dismissive.

At this point you are refusing to to read my posts in their entirety. In each post I make, I am remaining on point. As I have said time and time again, I am not defending Hamas against the claim that they are terrorists. My argument is that the definition itself is politicized instead of functional. Hamas is not simply a militia, it is a government that provides social services, etc.

You go on to claim that because there is a consensus on their status, that that is a universal truth. It isn't and I have demonstrated how pro-Israel Republican hawks have come out in support for MEK. Their reasons are obvious - anything to undermine Iran. The enemy of my enemy is my friend rationale. Hence, these politicians are lobbying our government to remove MEK from the 'the list.'

I also mentioned Nelson Mandela. He was only recently removed from the terrorist list. Yet, he is far from being thought of as a terrorist. The use of the label of "terrorist" is thus, political.

It doesn't imply that there is no truth to calling Hamas a terrorist group - it just means, IMO, that the label is narrow and inaccurate.

To sum up: I believe when sincere people read my posts in their entirety, and NOT your straw-man garbage replies, they will understand what I mean and agree with the context.

You stated that people never shake off the terrorist label, whether or not they reform or change tactics.

I referenced how Israel glorifies it's history of terrorism. I did so with good examples. Your Prime Ministers have been in terrorist groups. This fact is apparently lost on you. Certain standards apply to your enemies, while none to yourself.

I've made my point amid you've demonstrated once again what a total liar and narcissistic tool you are.

[solanis]

...what?

An Arab-Israeli member of parliament, Taleb el-Sana, said he was not surprised by the findings.

But Ahmed Tibi, another Arab member of parliament, said Israeli politics fuels racism.

there is no counterpoint in any of the articles, not even an interview from a right-wing israeli kid to back up their slant. I guess I'll just paste links to several articles about the same study, as well as irrelevant ones, next time I have to prove one of elvis's "points" wrong, since he seems to be going by quantity here.

I've made my point amid you've demonstrated once again what a total liar and narcissistic tool you are.

you continue to show what a laughable little man you are, as well as intellectually dishonest. you should feel fortunate that any of us are willing to even read your tirades, and I can assure that after this thread, that privilege of yours will no longer be in effect. go peddle your rants on mondoweiss where they give a shit lol I said (21 pages back) that I don't like arguing on the internet about israel, especially with people without a vested interest in the region. thanks for proving me right

[tyven]

this thread fucking rocks my socks. also i feel like the sooner we can get our young jews krav maga'ing the faster all of this can come to an end. If only the palis would bring back suicide bombing. we could have those suckasses out of here in no time.

[Correction]

there is no counterpoint in any of the articles, not even an interview from a right-wing israeli kid to back up their slant.

'both sides both sides both sides?'
Presumption that a quote is slanted based on the ethnicity of the speaker?

So not only are you a hypocrite, but a racist as well. K got it.

[solanis]

'both sides both sides both sides?'
Presumption that a quote is slanted based on the ethnicity of the speaker?

So not only are you a hypocrite, but a racist as well. K got it.

yes, that would be a perfectly reasonable question to have in this conflict which is so heavily based on racism from both groups, especially in an article about racism. were you deprived of oxygen as a child?

[Elvis]

The Israeli-Arab member of Parliament is commenting on a report that SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, you douche.

There need not be any other commentary. Unfortunately for you, quantitative studies are quantitative.

The percentages speak for themselves.

We can expand upon this discussion, as it has turned into 'attitudes of The Other', by referencing how Israeli Arabs are institutionally discriminated against in Israel.

There are studies published by Arab minority groups that confirm the obvious. Also, there are plenty of noteworthy articles that demonstrate the blatant racism in Israeli society.

That would be an easy discussion.

Remember Solanis dismissed the cultural variable contributing to the militancy in Palestinian youth. Instead, choosing to blame it all on Hamas and the allegation that they recruit child soldiers.

Total bullshit, not supported - and unsurprising coming from a pathological narcissist.

[bechyni]

Can't we just blame this all on religion and move along?

[tyven]

it doesnt work that way with the jews

[Elvis]

you continue to show what a laughable little man you are, as well as intellectually dishonest. you should feel fortunate that any of us are willing to even read your tirades, and I can assure that after this thread, that privilege of yours will no longer be in effect. go peddle your rants on mondoweiss where they give a shit lol I said (21 pages back) that I don't like arguing on the internet about israel, especially with people without a vested interest in the region. thanks for proving me right

If by 'us' you mean, Plow, Dim, tyven, etc. - then I could not care less. All of them are retarded trolls who no one takes seriously.

Nothing I've said constitutes a rant. Everything is backed up by the documentary record and the opposition I've faced in this thread consists of 'LOL, I'm not reading that'.

And believe me, you're nothing special. Just as I said on PAGE ONE - you, (and Art/Meat before you) are hardly a challenge to debate. The typical tactics of hasbararists is to accuse their critics of antisemitism. Then, there is a whole host of Zionist memes (Hamas charter, deny Israel right to exist, rockets, Palestinians need to love their children more than they hate Israel, blah blah).

What YOU'VE demonstrated is that in spite of constantly issuing declarations that you refuse to debate this issue, you remain here. You are here, on page 21, debating. There is no hidden knowledge you possess that we haven't yet seen.

This is you, at your best - and it's pathetic.

[bechyni]

You have two Jews as your avatar/profile pic/whatever, so anything you said void from the start.

[Elvis]

Nope. Mark Linn-Baker Jewish. Pinchot is Italian-Russian. Doesn't matter.

[Cleveland_7795]

You quoted (2) Arab-Israeli members of parliament....

Thought Israel was an apartheid state? Was South Africa "Super-Mega-Ultra Apartheid" of something? Blacks did not have the luxury of voting, let alone holding office. Yet Arabs in Israel do. And it seems they are also allowed to be critical of their own country and government, and still remain in office. Wonder what would happen if a member of Hamas's cabinet openly criticized it in the press? Better yet...a Jewish member of Hamas.

And I'm the psychopath.

Seriously, if you feel this strongly about it, Elvis, why the fuck aren't you on one of the boats or in Gaza building rockets?

[bechyni]

Nope. Mark Linn-Baker Jewish. Pinchot is Italian-Russian. Doesn't matter.

Look at guy on the right his nose screams Jew and the one on the left is Jew by association...they travel in pairs.

[Correction]

derp

Black president, therefore, racism in America solved!

[Cleveland_7795]

If by 'us' you mean, Plow, Dim, tyven, etc. - then I could not care less. All of them are retarded trolls who no one takes seriously.

Nothing I've said constitutes a rant. Everything is backed up by the documentary record and the opposition I've faced in this thread consists of 'LOL, I'm not reading that'.

And believe me, you're nothing special. Just as I said on PAGE ONE - you, (and Art/Meat before you) are hardly a challenge to debate. The typical tactics of hasbararists is to accuse their critics of antisemitism. Then, there is a whole host of Zionist memes (Hamas charter, deny Israel right to exist, rockets, Palestinians need to love their children more than they hate Israel, blah blah).

What YOU'VE demonstrated is that in spite of constantly issuing declarations that you refuse to debate this issue, you remain here. You are here, on page 21, debating. There is no hidden knowledge you possess that we haven't yet seen.

This is you, at your best - and it's pathetic.

And you have called every single person who disagrees with you racist....a typical tactic of the left. Be it Obama, or Israel.