Battle Reform: Enmity

[Takiwaki]

It doesn't make it dumber, it just gives you more information. You still have to decide whether what you're doing is good based on the hate meter. The skill is in controlling your enmity, not in seeing it.

Giving more information does indeed make it easier to control no? especially if part of the entire skill based gameplay is hate control. Really, it was part of what did set skillful players in 11 over non skillful players, the fact that you can just look and see ur hate is kinda like adding a shadow counter for blink tanking, it does take away some of the skill involved. controlling your enmity does become easier if you can see it. . .

[Kaylia]

I partly like the idea of the hate meter but doesn't it kinda dumb down the game even more? being that its supposed to be a more skill based battle system?

What Elcura said. Having to guess everything doesn't make you skilled, what make you skilled is the decision you take based on what you're told. Knowing your threat more accurately is simply going to allow you to optimize your damage input, instead of just playing it safe constantly (which is not hard)

And if you want a battle system that require skills, go play another mmo. FFXIV is the definition of rollface.

[Kurokikaze]

FFXIV is hard? It's only hard if you're missing a chromosome. Even then I think most could manage.

[Takiwaki]

but the point was arnt they trying to change it from being that way? lol

[Kurokikaze]

That comes in the way of challenging encounters. Not by displaying more information for players to use.

[Takiwaki]

I guess so lol

[Spider-Dan]

Obscuring information is not the kind of "challenge" one should aim for.

[Takiwaki]

Obscuring information is not the kind of "challenge" one should aim for.

I totally understand and agree but, my thinking was since the battle system is not very dynamic, like 11, knowing and understanding ur abilities and the hate it generates and having the skill to balance usage, would have made it more interesting. but being able to see ur hate kinda takes that away a bit. knowing when to back off and having a red light in ur face telling you back off are a bit different, and does involve skill. the battle system already does not have skill involved.

Just was looking at it from a different standpoint

[kisada]

it sounds more like you're just unconvinced.

speculation and guesswork is just that: speculation and guesswork. yes, as time goes on, anyone can develop an inherent ability to determine where they stand in certain situations without a gauge. but that's really more of a talent than a skill.

being able to consistently both distinguish between the right and wrong choices AND stick by the right one is what makes a player skilled.

[Takiwaki]

it sounds more like you're just unconvinced.

speculation and guesswork is just that: speculation and guesswork. yes, as time goes on, anyone can develop an inherent ability to determine where they stand in certain situations without a gauge. but that's really more of a talent than a skill.

being able to consistently both distinguish between the right and wrong choices AND stick by the right one is what makes a player skilled.

lol really? like I said I was looking at it from a different standpoint. nothing to do with convincing of anything. also have you ever played 11? if you did you will know that no not everyone can develop and inherent ability to determine where they stand on certain situations, yes maybe the elite bg crowd like us can but I can honestly attest that its not something everyone does well.

Distinguishing between right and wrong choices and sticking with right is what determines a player's skill, oh i agree, but when it comes to the hate meter its like understanding a traffic light, how does that require skill? Its either u run the red light or you don't.

I don't know where the speculation and guesswork came in btw.

anyways it could be great in what they are going to do with the battle system, as we do not know how it will impact in the long run.

[Elcura]

It's all risk management. Without a meter, you guess how much hate you have based on the actions you and your party have taken. With a meter, you see how much hate you have based on the actions you and your party have taken. Before the so-called skill came from estimation, smart guesses and experience. Afterwards the skill comes from pushing the envelope as much as you can for as long as you can without getting hate. Before you were just avoiding trucks on the motorway, now you're walking across a tightrope...above a motorway with trucks, lol

[Takiwaki]

How, does having a huge becon telling you your hate level, have anything to do with skill and pushing the envelope when its letting you know when exactly to stop and go? where is the risk? im green low hate let loose and dmg. im in the orange oh i better be careful. im in the red time to stop. sounds more like the game is playing you than you playing the game.

I know, I should know better and stop posting lol.

[Elcura]

I know, I should know better and stop posting lol.

No, I should know better. I suppose some people just like playing MMOs completely in the dark.

[Takiwaki]

No its sad that one cannot just have a constructive discussion without having a right or wrong coming into it, or insults.

[Spider-Dan]

How, does having a huge becon telling you your hate level, have anything to do with skill and pushing the envelope when its letting you know when exactly to stop and go?

Let me ask you a question:

Did FFXI gameplay become more or less skilled after Kaeko figured out the enmity formulas and posted exact enmity values, hate caps, decay rate, etc?

A system in which players simply guess at what is happening is not "more skilled" than one in which players have (more) easily verifiable ways to observe data. Right now, the only enmity data available is "Is the mob currently attacking me?" The icons, while not as precise as a specific number readout, allow for much more fine control and analysis of exactly how enmity is calculated and adjusted.

[Amastacia]

Giving more information does indeed make it easier to control no? especially if part of the entire skill based gameplay is hate control. Really, it was part of what did set skillful players in 11 over non skillful players, the fact that you can just look and see ur hate is kinda like adding a shadow counter for blink tanking, it does take away some of the skill involved. controlling your enmity does become easier if you can see it. . .

Adding a shadow counter did nothing to change the skill of blink tanking. The skill was never being able to count to 3, 4, or 5, the skill was being able to adapt to the situation and recast shadows most effectively. Things like knowing when it was best to take a hit to ultimately minimize damage taken, or knowing exactly when to start casting Ichi to squeeze it in between a mob's attacks, or learning when to cancel Ni (if necessary) to avoid leaving a large window of vulnerability while casting.

How, does having a huge becon telling you your hate level, have anything to do with skill and pushing the envelope when its letting you know when exactly to stop and go? where is the risk? im green low hate let loose and dmg. im in the orange oh i better be careful. im in the red time to stop. sounds more like the game is playing you than you playing the game.

I know, I should know better and stop posting lol.

I'm sure a lot of people will play it that way.

Or you could do it the right way, which is to use the meter to your advantage and stay as close to pulling hate as possible without actually getting aggro. It will depend on how wide of a range (percentage-wise) is represented by a red icon, with smaller being better.

Hate management by feel is one skill. Maximizing damage output based on available enmity information is another. It's not that adding a meter removes skill, it just changes the skill needed. It goes from using experience to gauge where the line is, to using experience to ride the line as closely as possible.

[Takiwaki]

couldn't you ride the line anyway while using experience to gauge?

[miokomioko]

I would like to know what you people consider "skill."

Is it accumulating specific gear sets? Is it getting lucky with drops? Is it having more manpower? Is it having cookie-cutter merits? Is it grinding multiple jobs to 75 (90)? Is it crafting +1/2/3s? Is it writing macros?

[Elcura]

couldn't you ride the line anyway while using experience to gauge?

Not as effectively as with a meter. Not everyone is rain man.

[xopher]

I would like to know what you people consider "skill."

Is it accumulating specific gear sets? Is it getting lucky with drops? Is it having more manpower? Is it having cookie-cutter merits? Is it grinding multiple jobs to 75 (90)? Is it crafting +1/2/3s? Is it writing macros?

skill = not being retarded.

not getting spike flailed = skill.

skill is pretty simple but a lot of people lack it.