Battle Reform: Enmity

[Takiwaki]

I think skill, has to do with anything that is not controlled by the game itself. Any player controlled action that can determine the outcome of a battle, be it observation, timing, reaction. etc. using the right gear does not fall into that category. my point about the hate meter is that it was basically reducing the skill involved in observing the hate distribution in battle. In ffxi, a skillful player would from understanding the abilities used to generate/lose hate, and by observation can risk riding the line. yes it was sometimes a guess but it was part of the fun, the risk. you don't have to be rainman lol, and yes it did take experience, learning. which is basically not as important if you can just look at a meter.

for 14 its left to be seen the impact it has on battle, maybe its needed and will be great, I am only going by what they did in the past as the battle system is shaping up to be closer to XI than before.

just imagine no more o shit moments when the ranger doesn't pull hate anymore cus they know exactly how much hate they have.

[Elcura]

In ffxi, a skillful player would from understanding the abilities used to generate/lose hate, and by observation can risk riding the line.

Really, cause with a meter, you pretty much do that. Except you're observing a meter and not the random movements of SE's AI programming.

[Thiefami]

I'm so confused as to why it matters if it's a meter or a colored icon system. You're just bitching to bitch at this moment. They accomplish the very same thing.

[Amastacia]

I would like to know what you people consider "skill."

Is it accumulating specific gear sets? Is it getting lucky with drops? Is it having more manpower? Is it having cookie-cutter merits? Is it grinding multiple jobs to 75 (90)? Is it crafting +1/2/3s? Is it writing macros?

Skill is knowing what to do when. A more skilled player does the right thing at the right time more often.

In FFXI part of skill is equipping the proper gear to get maximum effect from everything (part of doing the right thing at the right time), part is using the right spells, JAs, WSs etc. based on what is happening in a fight. That frequently boils down to mashing strongest WSs and using buffs to the timer, of course, but the theory holds.

Same basic thing in XIV, choosing the optimal skills (based on what is available), using them as effectively as possible, and using specialty skills at the right time for maximum impact.

[Gokulo]

Well, the meter would be more accurate most probably. Plus you would expect to be able to move it freely as a part of the UI as to have it wherever you want, and not another thing cluttering about near monster name.

[Takiwaki]

Really, cause with a meter, you pretty much do that. Except you're observing a meter and not the random movements of SE's AI programming.

No, it's not the same, I could not disagree more. you are not doing the same at all, the meter is doing all the observation for you. You don't have to gauge anything yourself (which was where the skill came in) as again you already have a gauge, a meter giving you a measured display of your hate.

Was not bitching about the meter, was just thinking that in a way it takes away from the risk, which was part of the fun, in 11. If there is an equally fun thing in the battles in 14, when they totally revamp, then there is no problem lol.

[Thiefami]

Well, the meter would be more accurate most probably. Plus you would expect to be able to move it freely as a part of the UI as to have it wherever you want, and not another thing cluttering about near monster name.

I will just lol to the meter being more accurate. I can see the UI argument, but even then it's a damn icon next to the monster's name not a bumblefuck of hieroglyphics.

[Takiwaki]

I will just lol to the meter being more accurate. I can see the UI argument, but even then it's a damn icon next to the monster's name not a bumblefuck of hieroglyphics.

LOL knowing SE they will screw this up too

[miokomioko]

Skill is knowing what to do when. A more skilled player does the right thing at the right time more often.

It sounds like knowing when or when not to do something, due to experience with XI's invisible enmity gauge, would definitely be skill.

In FFXI part of skill is equipping the proper gear to get maximum effect from everything

I would sat that is most definitely not skill. That's math.



A majorit of video game "skill" is just reactionary. I agree. However, mental multi-tasking is also an important skill. As the amount of information the HUD offers increases, the need for simultaneously keeping track of things (shadows/enmity/timers/etc) decreases. However, this is also a balance issue between "hardcore" and "casual" players.

[Elcura]

you are not doing the same at all, the meter is doing all the observation for you.

So I suppose looking at the meter is not an observation. Noticing something went from blue to red is a pretty important observation to gauge how much hate you've just accumulated. This informs your decisions in the future much faster than guesswork and estimation can. Sure, eventually without the meter you could come to the same conclusion, but you'll never be as sure.

You don't have to gauge anything yourself (which was where the skill came in) as again you already have a gauge, a meter giving you a measured display of your hate.

Of course you have to gauge things for yourself... did you not pay attention to anything that was said last page?

[Takiwaki]

So I suppose looking at the meter is not an observation. Noticing something went from blue to red is a pretty important observation to gauge how much hate you've just accumulated. This informs your decisions in the future much faster than guesswork and estimation can. Sure, eventually without the meter you could come to the same conclusion, but you'll never be as sure.



Of course you have to gauge things for yourself... did you not pay attention to anything that was said last page?

I sure have been! lol, you are trying too hard and not realizing my point. You have to now gauge less in terms of emnity, which is what we are talking about in the frist place, therefore it will require less skill, which no matter what is the truth. guesswork and estimation does take skill, which you just said is taken away. the thing is in 14 this may be a good thing as we need to react faster etc. but that was not the point.

miokomioko understood what I was trying to say. its not a big deal.

[Gokulo]

I can see the UI argument, but even then it's a damn icon next to the monster's name not a bumblefuck of hieroglyphics.

It's a question of aesthetics/taste I guess. I'm already annoyed by either some of the stuff they show on screen or just how it looks, that's why I don't trust them to make it something bearable this time.

[Elcura]

I sure have been! lol, you are trying too hard and not realizing my point. You have to now guess less in terms of emnity, which is what we are talking about in the frist place, therefore it will require different skills, which no matter what is the truth.

I see what's going on. The argument was originally on whether the game gets dumbed down with a hate meter. It doesn't, it just takes away the need for random guess work on enmity values. You're still required to not be a dumbass popping high-hate skills in quick succession and following up with a damaging WS. Knowing what your actions are doing informs you on how to better use them.

guesswork and estimation does take skill, which you just said is taken away

You what else takes skill? Managing your current hate values and pushing out as much damage as possible while not getting hate. And considering the way SE implemented the hate meter in XIV, some guess work and estimation might still be needed. Go figure.

Like I said before, some people just like living in the dark.

[fussel]

No, I should know better. I suppose some people just like playing MMOs completely in the dark.

And some seem to like to play poker with open hands...

With no hate meter/icons/whatever, you had to know when to do high enmity actions based on your party's actions. Do that WS after the tank voked, etc. With a hate meter, it's just "oh, green, push button".

[Takiwaki]

Yes sir Elcura, you have awesome internet skills, you win.

[Amastacia]

It sounds like knowing when or when not to do something, due to experience with XI's invisible enmity gauge, would definitely be skill.

Yes, I said that having a gauge means a different kind of skill. I never said anything about XI hate management not being a skill, just that having a meter means using a different skill.

That said, I prefer the skill of trying to sit in red on a meter (or at 99% if they move to a bar in the future) over the skill of eyeballing and guesstimating.

I would sat that is most definitely not skill. That's math.

A majorit of video game "skill" is just reactionary. I agree. However, mental multi-tasking is also an important skill. As the amount of information the HUD offers increases, the need for simultaneously keeping track of things (shadows/enmity/timers/etc) decreases. However, this is also a balance issue between "hardcore" and "casual" players.

There's a big math component to gearing. There's also the skill involved of selecting the proper gearset (and even fine-tuning macros) based on the situation. In some cases, such as SAM 1 hit WSs, there isn't really any skill involved, but when dealing with things like mulit-hit WSs on varying level (and evasion) targets, or tuning MND vs. skill for RDM enfeebles, there most definitely is.

There certainly is skill in mental multitasking, but that's not really a skill people can develop through practice (they can do it or they can't), so it's not a skill I'd want to see highlighted in cooperative games. I'd rather more information was presented, so that the skill focused deducing strategy for encounters and reacting based on the situation at hand. Purely personal preference, and I won't pretend otherwise.

(Hypocritically, I have good "twitch" and i like shooters that reward that ability, which is another skill, like mental multitasking, that can't be taught. Then again, FPS games generally have much less need for direct teamwork, twitch shooters especially, so incorporating a mechanic that can't really be learned isn't as big of a deal.)

[Kaeko]

I thought what they did was a pretty good compromise.

If you remember, they initially said they would give you a meter similar to an HP bar. They have now backed off a bit and are using this color icon system. So players that want enmity shown can still see it through an icon; but players that want it hidden still have something to "guess at" since it's not a % and just a 3 color system.

I can really go either way on whether or not the game should have an enmity indicator. All the specific values will eventually be figured out anyways. But not a fan of the flashing red light - we'll see how it's implemented.

[Cichy]

And some seem to like to play poker with open hands...

With no hate meter/icons/whatever, you had to know when to do high enmity actions based on your party's actions. Do that WS after the tank voked, etc. With a hate meter, it's just "oh, green, push button".

Are you sure you played FFXI? 90% of the time the shit I've seen was spamming nukes by blms till they died, DDs doing same shit, mpks, etc. In my 6 years + of XI I played PLD and Ninja, all you did was spam actions to keep hate, wasnt that difficult and a meter wouldnt change shit.

[Lordender]

Can't believe people are whining over a fucking hate meter. Good god, gonna have to barrow a line from Lucavi.

"Purists can't have that! guess work is always better!"

People seem to of forgotten, SE is not just targeting XI players only, they want to bring MMO gamers from other games into the mix who might just be a casual FF player or someone who's never really played FF games.

[Cichy]

I can't believe that they whining in this thread and arguing how much skill it takes to play without one.