Battle Reform: Enmity

[Ropeydonkey]

At first, all this icon will do is draw attention to the buggy inner workings of the whole battle system. If the icon was already there, I'd half expect it to be randomly flicking through red/green, as the algorithm they've been using sucks balls. As an Archer, broken hate makes this game more annoying than Jedwood - one self buff just as the mob is being engaged and someone has to do 12358975289 damage to pull hate back.

As for skill, yes it removes an element of skill, as well as opening up new areas for the application of skill.

For me, skill is the person on crowd control that never lets things get out of hand or the puller that always brings back the right mob(s) with no unwanted links etc, lowmanning something a wiki swears needs an alliance, not hitting "ops, wrong macro, SRY!" /wipe, i.e. not the guy who spent all night with his calculator and/or a spreadsheet (although 'experience' is all part of 'skill' I guess...)

I think the icon was a good compromise, a meter leaves nothing to guesswork or 'feel'.

[miokomioko]

I never said anything about XI hate management not being a skill, just that having a meter means using a different skill.

Well, I'm not arguing for or against an HUD enmity meter... I kinda' like the idea. It might not be you, but there were just some people saying that XI's hate management was simply "guessing" and didn't actually involve any "skill" which I disagree with since it took a lot of experience to become accurately in tune it with and being hyper-aware of the invisible gauge among all other simultaneous tasks is a skill in my eyes.

The skill is in controlling your enmity, not in seeing it.

Having to guess everything doesn't make you skilled, what make you skilled is the decision you take based on what you're told.

anyone can develop an inherent ability to determine where they stand in certain situations without a gauge. but that's really more of a talent than a skill.

Before the so-called skill came from estimation, smart guesses and experience.

A system in which players simply guess at what is happening is not "more skilled" than one in which players have (more) easily verifiable ways to observe data.

It's like saying someone who has so much experience in something that they can simply "eyeball" things and actually be accurate in their profession (be it woodworking, painting, etc.) aren't actually skilled, they are just making "smart guesses."

[Almalexia]

Add a display toggle.

/hatebeacon on
/hatebeacon off

Or is the UI element itself not the problem here? Do we need to go deeper?

[Charismatic]

Shit, did someone just try to argue that riding the hate line with a gauge is skillz whereas somehow preforming the same task with knowledge of the game and its mechanics and how enmity is gained and such gained via experience either is not skillz or less so?
I hope that's not what I just read. Please tell me I misunderstood something.

Yes, having a meter is convenient but there is no fucking way in hell responding to a colored light is skill unless not being retarded is a skill now and if it is... I feel sorry for the coming generations of humans.

[Lazytowner]

Do we need to go deeper?

That's what she and Leonardo Dicaprio both said.

[millionsknives]

...the meter is doing all the observation for you

^ This

[Lucavi]

Can't believe people are whining over a fucking hate meter. Good god, gonna have to barrow a line from Lucavi.

"Purists can't have that! guess work is always better!"

People seem to of forgotten, SE is not just targeting XI players only, they want to bring MMO gamers from other games into the mix who might just be a casual FF player or someone who's never really played FF games.

I told you bra~!! Wow I just noticed this thread and damn, haha. Elcura, we've had our tussles in the past, but keep steering that ship because I'm happily onboard.

XI's encounters were apparently so devoid of skill that the purists are now believing that not causing a spike flail on one of the conceptually easiest bosses in all of MMO history is somehow skillful. Christ, this is like some kind of Tea Party forum now. You can't make this stuff up.

We've been through this a million times. While XI purists were bragging about how much skill it took to stand on a dragon's feet and swing away while not making it turn around, others were, you know, actually moving around and using the environment, teamwork, and reactionary thinking outside of timing a stun or a flash to claim a mob in other games. Go look at the Hegian dance or the Naxx Dragon fight to see what the rest of the MMO world was doing during the same time period.

This is absurd.

[miokomioko]

You seem to be really great at not reading what's actually being discussed before making a stupid remark.

[Spider-Dan]

Have we seriously gotten to the point where the ability to determine your current hate level is a worthy determination of good and bad players?
A skill so critical to separating the wheat from the chaff that it MUST be prioritized over deciding what to do about your hate level?

Let us be clear in stating what we are talking about, here. We are discussing the value of:

- being able to determine what your current enmity is (NOT taking actions to reduce it, NOT managing your hate levels to stay under a threshold, but LITERALLY and EXCLUSIVELY just knowing what it is right now)

versus (<--- this part is important, because we are necessarily talking about ONE OR THE OTHER)

- having the above information provided to you, and worrying instead about which actions you should take, given your current enmity level

I don't know about you, but I do not see "estimating your own enmity" as a skill worth emphasizing. It is not good game design to create a situation where one person succeeds and another fails based SOLELY (again, important!) on a disparity in ability to accurately assess your own enmity.

[Lucavi]

You seem to be really great at not reading what's actually being discussed before making a stupid remark.

No, I'm pretty sure I've got it down pat. Thanks, though, and yes, listen to Elcura and SD. Please. If you can't see how being able to design more complicated fights around the premise that players can now see exactly how they stand within the hate threshold, and how that could and would make for more skillful encounters than this... tripe... that we currently have, then everything you have and could post in the future is meaningless. Estimating one's own hate is not some sort of skill-determiner. The only way it could be construed as such is within a game that has such a restrictive combat (especially within boss fights) system and such pitiable bars for determining skill that the playerbase begins to self-determine that performing guess-work on enmity is some sort of skillful practice.

Edit: Hell, that's just the tip of the iceberg on how they could beef up the encounters, but they have to start somewhere. I know, though, that you're all about things staying the same, so I can see how this would be tough for you. I'm sorry that it's no longer the cusp of year 2005. It must be hard for you.

[kisada]

Have we seriously gotten to the point where the ability to determine your current hate level is a worthy determination of good and bad players?
A skill so critical to separating the wheat from the chaff that it MUST be prioritized over deciding what to do about your hate level?

Let us be clear in stating what we are talking about, here. We are discussing the value of:

- being able to determine what your current enmity is (NOT taking actions to reduce it, NOT managing your hate levels to stay under a threshold, but LITERALLY and EXCLUSIVELY just knowing what it is right now)

versus (<--- this part is important, because we are necessarily talking about ONE OR THE OTHER)

- having the above information provided to you, and worrying instead about which actions you should take, given your current enmity level

I don't know about you, but I do not see "estimating your own enmity" as a skill worth emphasizing. It is not good game design to create a situation where one person succeeds and another fails based SOLELY (again, important!) on a disparity in ability to accurately assess your own enmity.

i'm not sure it could be clearer than this. if people still can't comprehend the difference then it's probably pointless to continue arguing. who knows, maybe they will never understand the distinction in the first place.

all i know is if i'm building a linkshell roster, 100 times out of 100 i'm gonna pick the guy who can make the right choice rather than the one who simply parrots their hate read. there is no substitute for competence in a group setting.

[Thiefami]

Add a display toggle.

/hatebeacon on
/hatebeacon off

Or is the UI element itself not the problem here? Do we need to go deeper?

lol, beacon. You are in SEs head

[Arximiro]

God dammit are you guys doing this back and forth shit in both threads? FFS take it to PMS. You know who you are.

[Lazytowner]

So guys I heard they're taking away the HP bar from the UI for 1.18.


When this much needed fix is implemented you better be able to accurately gauge your current HP at all times during a fight. You casuals had it wayyy to easy being able to see EXACTLY how much health you had before your character fell down in a hailstorm of indistinguishable, canned animations.



Silly baka gaijins. Square Enix has and always will make infallible choices in the design of their video games.



DEBATE ME.

[Kurokikaze]

FFXIV is hard? It's only hard if you're missing a chromosome. Even then I think most could manage.

I don't think enough people saw this so I'm quoting it again. The same applies to all of FFXI's encounters short of AV and PW.

[Meko]

These 'purists' have probably never encountered the WoW raids and the coordination it takes in those raids to be successful.

[Gokulo]

These 'purists' have probably never encountered the WoW raids and the coordination it takes in those raids to be successful.

The sad part is, i the short adventure I had with WoW I never did any raids and I feel sad about that :< My fault for not picking a server where I know a couple of friends had a guild, instead going to a server with one closer friend who invited me to the game and then decided he's too bored with WoW soon after that. But I might be bothered to buy Cata and play it again someday and finally check this stuff out.

[Amastacia]

I told you bra~!! Wow I just noticed this thread and damn, haha. Elcura, we've had our tussles in the past, but keep steering that ship because I'm happily onboard.

XI's encounters were apparently so devoid of skill that the purists are now believing that not causing a spike flail on one of the conceptually easiest bosses in all of MMO history is somehow skillful. Christ, this is like some kind of Tea Party forum now. You can't make this stuff up.

We've been through this a million times. While XI purists were bragging about how much skill it took to stand on a dragon's feet and swing away while not making it turn around, others were, you know, actually moving around and using the environment, teamwork, and reactionary thinking outside of timing a stun or a flash to claim a mob in other games. Go look at the Hegian dance or the Naxx Dragon fight to see what the rest of the MMO world was doing during the same time period.

This is absurd.

Mmmyep. I have been hoping like no other that SE stays miles and miles away from any world-spawn endgame, because instanced dungeons present so many more options for interesting encounters.

Not that SE has taken the best advantage of the opportunity in the past, but it'll become apparent fairly quickly whether the problem is lack of imagination or such godawful game systems that it's infeasible to implement. I think there's a director who has the imagination (and knows what's been done, and fun in other games), so we'll have to wait and see if they can make good, or if it's more of the same old boring crap.

I don't think enough people saw this so I'm quoting it again. The same applies to all of FFXI's encounters short of AV and PW.

I mostly agree, some of the instances were fun the first few times through. Salvage, for one, introduced new tactics. Maybe not as widely varied and engaging as some other MMOs, but chariot fights were certainly out of character (at the time) for FFXI fights. Likewise some Ein bosses... stopping the KB from Meteoring as often/at all was a direct contradiction to normal FFXI tactics, with no warning or hints.

Haven't really played since Abyssea, so can't comment on how widely boss fights vary there.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I'd guess that since you can kill everything with 3 people the fights are fairly unimaginative.

[fussel]

Are you sure you played FFXI? 90% of the time the shit I've seen was spamming nukes by blms till they died, DDs doing same shit, mpks, etc. In my 6 years + of XI I played PLD and Ninja, all you did was spam actions to keep hate, wasnt that difficult and a meter wouldnt change shit.

Seems that the people I played with were more skillful than the people you encountered.