Obama proposes cuts to social security and medicare

[solanis]

Like giving billions in no-strings-attached materiel and aid to Israel?

I think a lot of what the government gives to israel should be amped down. FIGHT ME

[Kuya]

sweeping audits and amped up regulations as a start, then fix what's found. what would you do, kuya? you spend a lot more of your time on political stuff than I do.

I don't know. I don't even know what specific irresponsability or inefficiency we're talking about.

[Kurokikaze]

the number is calculated before charitable deductions, as any good accountant will quote for you as a function of your actual income. good lord man.

The same accountant that has you paying 45% of your income in taxes right...? I smell bullshit.

[Darus Grey]

the number is calculated before charitable deductions, as any good accountant will quote for you as a function of your actual income. good lord man.

False, if you itemize deductions you taxable income is calculated after all charitable donations...that's the entire fucking point of using donations to lower your tax burden.

I'm calling bullshit on this whole thing now, I actually play the game you claim to be playing, and at best you're exaggerating immensely about how much taxes you really pay, have the world's worst accountant, or are just straight up bullshitting.

[solanis]

False, if you itemize deductions you taxable income is calculated after all charitable donations...that's the entire fucking point of using donations to lower your tax burden.

I'm calling bullshit on this whole thing now, I actually play the game you claim to be playing, and at best you're exaggerating immensely about how much taxes you really pay, have the world's worst accountant, or are just straight up bullshitting.

what game? you work in financial services like me? I'm not going to paste my tax return in here, but if you're complaining that I calculate my annual charitable contribution as a pre-deduction percentage, I really don't know what to tell you. charitable contributions are hardly an efficient tax shelter in any case, especially for people making any significant percentage of their income through capital gains. keep coming up with random shit to try to argue with me

ps. do you actually live in manhattan? if you did you would be facing income, property, etc taxes similar to mine. living in this city is, uh, not tax efficient, shall we say.

[solanis]

I went a little overboard with my rant, but its almost always the same song and dance from anti-tax advocates (i kinda hate to even use the word rich since I've heard it plenty from people who aren't even close to the top tax bracket) claiming "its my money, I earned it," "people should get off their asses and work," "its not fair to tax the rich/successful more (my favorite)" etc. you spent half this thread making the claim you're taxed too much and that you worked hard & for a long time for your money, so its not exactly as if I just pulled it out of thin air (and quit whining about it, you live in Manhattan, of course your taxes are higher than if you had the same income but lived in Jersey).

that's totally cool, except I never used that rhetoric because I don't believe in it. the rhetoric I don't believe in is "since you make so much money, you were only making it because society invested in you, you can live in a nice house no matter how much is taken from you and it really won't hurt you to lose more of it, so give it all back and fix our problems with your money because it's your civic duty." this proposition that ANY amount of money is negligible is absurd. however, if you said, "rich people don't want to throw more money into a black hole" then yes, yes I believe that. if you're going to take my money, fine, take it, but at least use it properly. until it becomes clear that it's being used properly, I don't want to give it away. I think this is an attitude that all tax brackets should feel strongly about.

[Demosthenes11]

"I'm being taxed too much, I barely make enough after taxes to give away 25% of my income" ?

I is confused. not attacking or anything, genuinely confused

[solanis]

"I'm being taxed too much, I barely make enough after taxes to give away 25% of my income" ?

I is confused. not attacking or anything, genuinely confused

you're not reading the thread. I don't have a problem with having my money taken from me if it's being used properly, but it's pretty clearly not being used properly. I also don't think that tapping the wealthy's bloodflow will solve any problems, because the government isn't an issue of not having enough money, it's an issue of not using the money they have properly. I donate to charities because I like contributing to causes I care about, and it's nice to contribute in a way that allows me to know how my money is being allocated and deployed. does that help?

[Kuya]

The government doesn't have an issue with money because it can borrow to its heart's content given the strength of the dollar and the american economy. If the debt is such a big fucking deal i don't know why they don't try to get a trade surplus rather than feign all this concern over the fucking deficit.

[Demosthenes11]

you're not reading the thread. I don't have a problem with having my money taken from me if it's being used properly, but it's pretty clearly not being used properly. I also don't think that tapping the wealthy's bloodflow will solve any problems, because the government isn't an issue of not having enough money, it's an issue of not using the money they have properly. I donate to charities because I like contributing to causes I care about, and it's nice to contribute in a way that allows me to know how my money is being allocated and deployed. does that help?

that does help, but it doesn't match up with reality.

Charitable donations do not go up during times of low tax rates for the rich. Also, look at how much money the government is missing out on due to the bush tax cuts. It's a fucking incredible amount that I didn't even believe when I first saw it.

http://wheremymoneygoes.com/ - most of your money doesn't even go to entitlement spending, so I'm not sure why you are thinking your taxes go solely toward joe on the corner that is smoking crack. What about the roads, lakes, public transportation, hell I'll even say defense.

[Zoolander]

Solanis, theres confusion because you come off as having at minimum a...unique take on taxes & economics (can't say I've heard many/any folks shout for lower taxes and higher regulation, for example). and you appear to be mistaking what you do with what the rest of your tax bracket does and then take offense when we slam that bracket.

You're saying that since the money being taken isn't used properly, we should be reducing the money we do get, effectively exacerbating the problem? Could also just be subscribing to potentially contradicting ideologies and unformed opinions on these things, no idea how much you think about these things. Or you're playing some sort of ill-conceived devil's advocate/troll to make this thread interesting.

And who knows Kuya, doing whats best means doing whats politically smart right now.

[quannum]

correct me if im wrong, but all he's saying is that the govt spends a ridic. amount of money on retarded shit already. you don't give more money to someone who blows $650B on bullets & tanks or whatever his example is

a "spend it on shit i approve of then we'll talk" approach

[Caiyuo]

I'm not seeing the extreme absurdity in the argument either given it seems like if what Solanis' argument boils down to is an elimination of waste before higher taxes are acceptable, that seems like a position all tax brackets should be able to agree on if it meant improving efficiency, reducing current spending, and eventually increasing revenue. I doubt any of that would happen as it seems way too late in the discussion but the argument itself doesn't seem so bad.

with that said, I liked it better when I thought solanis was an old lady

[zoobernut]

ZOOLANDER > ZOOBERNUT

What? ok.

[Demosthenes11]

I'm not seeing the extreme absurdity in the argument either given it seems like if what Solanis' argument boils down to is an elimination of waste before higher taxes are acceptable, that seems like a position all tax brackets should be able to agree on if it meant improving efficiency, reducing current spending, and eventually increasing revenue. I doubt any of that would happen as it seems way too late in the discussion but the argument itself doesn't seem so bad.

with that said, I liked it better when I thought solanis was an old lady

if you want to cut pork spending, you would literally need a different system than a republic.

[Bingbong]

if you want to cut pork spending, you would literally need a different system than a republic.

don't need a whole new system, just more transparency in the current one... honestly, if these mega-spending bills hit the interwebs 72 hours before they could be voted on, you would have every blogging whacko reading these things for earmarks and assorted pork... twitter and facebook would assplode with "Zomg! Congress is sending 125million to Arkansas for mud research!" that most of that shit would have to be cut out, or Congress would get swamped with correspondence from constituents.

[archibaldcrane]

Nah. People don't care that much, and every budget bill has so many "mud research" pork pieces in it that the sheer volume (and tiny portion of the total budget) would prevent much outrage. It's not like the bills aren't published anyway.

[Demosthenes11]

don't need a whole new system, just more transparency in the current one... honestly, if these mega-spending bills hit the interwebs 72 hours before they could be voted on, you would have every blogging whacko reading these things for earmarks and assorted pork... twitter and facebook would assplode with "Zomg! Congress is sending 125million to Arkansas for mud research!" that most of that shit would have to be cut out, or Congress would get swamped with correspondence from constituents.

the thing is, most of the pork isn't from a few projects. It's $1m here, $1.5m there. There are a few headline ones in the $50m+ range a year, but that's not exactly the crux of the problem. Pork spending is also remarkably smaller annually than what people think it is. It represents something like .5% of our budget.

[Zoolander]

lol, what is your deal zoober

I'm not seeing the extreme absurdity in the argument either given it seems like if what Solanis' argument boils down to is an elimination of waste before higher taxes are acceptable, that seems like a position all tax brackets should be able to agree on if it meant improving efficiency, reducing current spending, and eventually increasing revenue. I doubt any of that would happen as it seems way too late in the discussion but the argument itself doesn't seem so bad.

That last paragraph by soli in a vacuum sounds semi reasonable, but ehhh...theres been a lot of shit spewed before to warrant skepticism. namely throwing out "socialist" as a legit insult like 4 times and thinking Darus was trolling because he threw out the crazy notion that publicly funded services had a part in his success. a lot of the statements about the responsibility of the rich made the "25% donation to charities" a little...perplexing as well.

spoilered some thread quotes:

Spoiler: show

do you have any idea how much we already pay? get out of here with that shit. fucking socialists man <--referring to: "Also, we have to cut services for the poor or we can't protect the super-wealthy"

whatever it is, it's too much. though I do know the brits and ex-axis countries in particular take it in the ass. I pay 40-45% personally and more on gains from investing. I don't feel like it's my social obligation to fund everything because I've been successful. I completely understand why people outside this bubble feel differently, of course.

it's not our job or ethical responsibility.

Q from Darus: Are you going to argue that publicly funded services had no part in your ability to be successful in life? They invested in you, now you balk at investing in them.

yes. aside from like... roads and passport offices? surely you are trolling

^i mean come on, really??

I like your socialist rhetoric. well, the day that the passport offices and roads need money even after efficient government allocation has been secured, by all means, tax me more.

I'm honestly shocked that you aren't trolling. your logic is that since I live in a country with a government, my wealth should be redistributed back to the public because the government supplies society with the building blocks of order?

[Niiro]

I'm honestly shocked that you aren't trolling. your logic is that since I live in a country with a government, my wealth should be redistributed back to the public because the government supplies society with the building blocks of order?