What's Better?

[Motenten]

Solo Exenterator: Denali or Toci's?
Stacked SA/TA Exenterator: Loki's or Toci's?
Solo SA: Loki's or Toci's?

Solo Exen:

Denali: 10 agi gives ~8.5 base damage; 9 att
Toci's: 13 str gives ~3.25 base damage; total att = 16.5; 3% DA

Difference: 5.25 base damage vs 7.5 att and 3% DA.
Cancelling out approximate equivalencies, that's 3 base damage vs 3% DA

3 base damage is ~1.75% with a good setup. 3% DA as /nin or /dnc is ~1.75%, 1.7% if /war.

If you start capping fStr, Toci's value goes down.

Overall, looks like Denali is the more solid choice.


SA Exen:

Loki's: 11 dex, 11 agi (9.35 dmg), 5% crit damage
Toci's: 13 str (3.25 dmg), 13 dex, 10 att, 3% DA

Cancel out dex and str/agi dmg:
Loki's: 6.1 dmg, 5% crit damage
Toci's: 2 dex, 16 att, 3% DA

5% crit damage applied to cRatio between .8 and 1.75 (with varying level correction) is roughly the equivalent of +55 to +60 attack on the first hit. So the first hit is overwhelmingly in favor of Loki's. The balance on the remaining hits is:

Lokis: 6.1 dmg
Toci's: 16 att, 3% DA.

You end up with a small bit of attack in Toci's favor. Overall, not nearly enough to compensate for the difference on the first hit. As such, Loki's.


TA Exen:

Same as above, but without the 13 dex on Toci's side applying to the first hit, and -with- the agi on Loki's side applying to the TA bonus damage. Loki's has a more solid lead.


Solo SA:

Nearly identical, overall.

Finally, better off in RQT but linked to this so posting here: Does Toci's fit anywhere in a Thf TP set anymore? Or does AF3+2 Head/body/legs AF2+2 Feet & Haste hands reign supreme?

Oce+1 + Toci's appears to be a better combo than AF3+2 head/body. NQ Oce head seems sidegrade to slight upgrade. AF3+2 hands combined with AF3+2 legs seem the better choice (compared to Brego hands) unless you're capping attack or getting Marches. If you're not using AF3+2 legs, then Brego hands.

Overall set: Oce+1 head, Toci's Harness, AF3+2 hands, AF3+2 legs, AF2+2 feet. Yes, 19% haste, and it looks like it does better than capped haste config in a low to mid-buff setup (including getting Haste + Haste Samba; need Marches to push haste config ahead).

[Atoreis]

Careful though. With max merits, you will need a faith torque to reach the next dmg tier as PUP. Unless you want to sacrifice Brutal for Bruiser?

Well im not sure whats better 3% crit or 7att and +~1% damage (1 base dmg is around 1.1% increase in melee damage). Its probably close.

[Byrthnoth]

Solo Exen:

Denali: 10 agi gives ~8.5 base damage; 9 att
Toci's: 13 str gives ~3.25 base damage; total att = 16.5; 3% DA

Difference: 5.25 base damage vs 7.5 att and 3% DA.
Cancelling out approximate equivalencies, that's 3 base damage vs 3% DA

3 base damage is ~1.75% with a good setup. 3% DA as /nin or /dnc is ~1.75%, 1.7% if /war.

If you start capping fStr, Toci's value goes down.

Overall, looks like Denali is the more solid choice.

Does THF have a better WS head for Exenterator than Ocelo +1? If not, Toci's would give 3% TA too.

[Motenten]

Does THF have a better WS head for Exenterator than Ocelo +1? If not, Toci's would give 3% TA too.

Ah, I forgot to add that in. TA is slightly more troublesome because it loses a bit of its potency. With 4 main hits and 1 offhand, 2 TAs only gives you +3 hits instead of +4.

When I put it in my spreadsheet, adding the TA ends up with a tie between Toci and Denali on weaker stuff (up to Bukhis stats), but Toci's wins on harder stuff (Qilin stats), primarily due to the extra accuracy. Given that, I'd go with Toci's simply for the assurance on the acc side.

[noodles355]

Thanks for the info on the WS setups, so Toci's for solo Exen and Loki's for stacked? or does the Triple Attack boost Toci's ahead on that too?

Your Thf TP musings interest and surprise me greatly. The only content I use Thf on is Dynamis and easier (up to T3) Voidwatch, so I'd hope accuracy would be near to cap in those situations. For dynamis, /dnc and whm mule (but usually drain samba). For VW, /war always. Don't presently have Ocelomeh+1 Hat and don't see myself buying it in the near future (more important things for other jobs really). With that in mind:

Ocelomeh+Toci's Would be best for Exen like you suggest then, but Ocelomeh+Loki's still best for stacked? I had forgotten about the set bonus when figuring WS gear, so had Aias+Toci's for Evis, but I assume Oce+Toci's would beat that at uncapped fStr?

For TP, I can't see Accuracy being a huge issue on the content I do. It's not in dynamis, and the rare time I voidwatch is /War, so Agressor and Stalwarts. So when Acc is capped, what would you think be the safest bet for a general TP gearset out of these (if it's obviously completely different for /war on VW and /dnc in dyna, then will just make two sets) :
Head: AF3+2 or NQ Ocelomeh
Body: Toci's or AF3+2
Hands: Af3+2 or Brego
Feet: Af2+2 or Dusk+1
Other slots being Dualwieldmarang, Rancor, Suppa/Brutal, Epona/Rajas, Atheling, Twilight, Af3+2 legs.

[Motenten]

Thanks for the info on the WS setups, so Toci's for solo Exen and Loki's for stacked? or does the Triple Attack boost Toci's ahead on that too?

Adding in the TA on the stacked weaponskills narrows the gap, but Loki's is still a bit ahead on SA+Exen, and decently ahead on TA+Exen.

Ocelomeh+Toci's Would be best for Exen like you suggest then, but Ocelomeh+Loki's still best for stacked? I had forgotten about the set bonus when figuring WS gear, so had Aias+Toci's for Evis, but I assume Oce+Toci's would beat that at uncapped fStr?

Yeah, Oce+Toci's would be the better option for Evis, stacked or unstacked.

For TP, I can't see Accuracy being a huge issue on the content I do. It's not in dynamis, and the rare time I voidwatch is /War, so Agressor and Stalwarts. So when Acc is capped, what would you think be the safest bet for a general TP gearset out of these (if it's obviously completely different for /war on VW and /dnc in dyna, then will just make two sets) :
Head: AF3+2 or NQ Ocelomeh
Body: Toci's or AF3+2
Hands: Af3+2 or Brego
Feet: Af2+2 or Dusk+1
Other slots being Dualwieldmarang, Rancor, Suppa/Brutal, Epona/Rajas, Atheling, Twilight, Af3+2 legs.

/dnc vs Fodder (DC dynamis mobs), Bison Steak

1) Best appears to be AF3+2 head/body/hands/legs, AF2+2 feet
2) Very close to that (within 0.5%) is Ocelo head, Toci body, Brego hands, AF2+2 feet (slightly ahead of Dusk feet)

Option 2 with HQ Oce head would be ahead of option 1. Option 2 has a small defensive advantage from the extra agi (-TP given, evasion).

All other combinations seem significantly behind those.


In VW (/war), for any mobs where acc is an issue, AF3+2 head/hands pull well ahead of Oce head/Brego hands; combine with Toci's and AF2+2 feet.

If acc is not an issue, AF3+2 head, Toci's, Brego, AF3+2 legs, Dusk+1 feet seems the best option.

[Karbuncle]

How does Cuauhitli +1 head Stack? For Solo/SA Exenterator

7STR/7DEX/7AGI(~5acc/atk from +6 Dagger skill) vs 13DEX/13AGI

For Solo Exenterator, its 7STR, and 5acc/atk vs 6 AGI. Imagine you're using Denali Body for Exenterator.

I mean, Some sets to consider might be...

Cuah+1 Head
Athos Tabard

Cuah +1 Head
Denali Jacket

Ocelom+1
Toci's Body

[noodles355]

If acc is not an issue, AF3+2 head, Toci's, Brego, AF3+2 legs, Dusk+1 feet seems the best option.

So in this instance (Acc not an issue, /War, T3~ish VW) Being at 25% haste beats out being 22% with Af2+2's triple attack... Lol shit so situational on thief... though looking at it, most of these are tiny changes in DPS... For example using the quoted setup, swapping Brego to AF3+2 gives a boost of about 0.9 to melee DPS... which is about the same boost as swapping homam to dusk+1 feet in acc capped situations, with stalwarts and berserk up... so yeah...

Also I dont know what's happened but my spreadsheet is acting up, it's latest version, got just tonight. Plaaying around swapping daggers and now with identical gear, sets 1 and 2 are showing different results. SA, TA, TP, WS, etc gear all the same. SA/SA Round, TA/TA Round, Melee Round, melee DPS, WS dmg, SAWS, TAWS all identical results, but cycle times are different which is making the total DPSs different. The only changes I made to anything not gear slot related was adding a line for Dusk+1 in the feet armor list.

[Motenten]

Being at 25% haste beats out being 22% with Af2+2's triple attack

Well, the haste puts it on par, the 5 att puts it ahead.

though looking at it, most of these are tiny changes in DPS.

Yeah, I try to only take special note if things diverge by more than 1%-2%, but it's hard to be completely clear on the differences.

Also I dont know what's happened but my spreadsheet is acting up

The thf spreadsheet can be difficult because it has so many more dependencies across so many factors. Would suggest saving it, closing it, then reloading it to let the program rebuild the computations from scratch. If it's still different, try to track down the point at which the two sets diverge on the Data page. Also check things like number of Over-TP rounds.

[noodles355]

Alright will do. Thanks for all the great info, as always!

[Xorn]

wrong thread

[Palides]

BLM nuking:

staff/???/---/memoria
af+2/stoich/hecate/novio
af+2/af+2/strendu/icesoul
searing/oneiros/af+2/af+2

Currently use Wise Strap. I would use the new one but its never on the AH. Improvements anywhere? I have a slightly different set for macc, not that its needed currently.

[grevenilvec75]

BLM nuking:

staff/???/---/memoria
af+2/stoich/hecate/novio
af+2/af+2/strendu/icesoul
searing/oneiros/af+2/af+2

Currently use Wise Strap. I would use the new one but its never on the AH. Improvements anywhere? I have a slightly different set for macc, not that its needed currently.

I went from Bugard+1 to wizzan.

If you want to min/max you could use Ossa Grip for ice nukes, but you'd have to keep recasting Ice spikes.

As for the rest IDK.

[Rehn]

Precast in +2, nuke with nefer +1, replace stoich with saevus. I'm not sure if relic +2 will beat empy +2... 5 INT vs. 2 MAB.

[Dtroyy]

BLM nuking:

staff/???/---/memoria
af+2/stoich/hecate/novio
af+2/af+2/strendu/icesoul
searing/oneiros/af+2/af+2

Currently use Wise Strap. I would use the new one but its never on the AH. Improvements anywhere? I have a slightly different set for macc, not that its needed currently.

For VW you really want to get rid of searing. Use Romanus Cape, just don't precast in it, augmented Valkyrie's trews and Oneiros head are improvements in damage.

[Palides]

Cheers, thanks everyone.

[Alkimi]

If you're fighting something like Rex (Well pretty much only him atm) you may want to swap a few MAB pieces for INT depending on your race/merits. Personally I swap in AF3 back, Cogntion Belt and Strophadic Earring and that does me fine with a pretty minimal loss in potential max damage.

He's not "Tiamat at 75" resistant but his huge INT might hurt your damage if you're for example elvaan nuking in all +MAB gear.

[Aja]

Potestas Bomblet is better than Thew Bomblet in all situations for Mnk?

[Motenten]

Potestas Bomblet is better than Thew Bomblet in all situations for Mnk?

Unless you're attack capped but not fStr capped, but in that case Tantra Tathlum would be better.

[Blackroses]

Alruna's Gloves VS Augmented Blood Finger Gauntlets for Snapshot on RNG?