What's Better?

[Atoreis]

I'd like to see how you figure. I think Gnarled Horn blows SS away, especially for WAR, although I'd be interested to see how you (or anybody) justifies using SS over Gnarled Horn.

Well in this case I will tell you what I hate to hear, its from observation. On MNK my damage went up by a lot in Impetus phase and I definitely kill everything much faster. Ofc GH is still batter if you need more counter and less tp moves.

As for WAR its the same but its coming from my friend who play WAR all the time. Idk maybe its because of Ukko's high base crit rate but he also prefers SS for pure damage.

[Julian]

I pretty much always use RR/GH/Apoc, replace Apoc with SS if I feel I need a bit more survivability. (Damn my Taru HP )

Like others mentioned, the agi+50 is pretty fucking awesome for lowering tp gain. Counter is also nice. Speaking mostly from WOE MNK and Kannagi NIN experience, almost done with my Ukon. :D

[Okan]

Taru MNK so I use Apoc, RR, and in place of GH I use SS for the HP bonus. I'm sure in terms of non-tank DPS, GH would be superior, but I just like that added 400'ish HP to have that buffer if needed.

[Julian]

If you're fighting something where that extra 400 hp matters, the reduced tp gain from the 50 agi would probably matter a lot, too. I would think.

[Nightfyre]

Posted in wrong thread so: What would be a better offhand sword for a BLU w/ Almace: OAT or DA+10% sword?

Between the two, DA. But really STR.

[Okan]

Possibly. Right now we're still doing a lot of small-fry things or things that are normally brewed. We haven't really moved in to most of the +2 NMs yet as we're still gathering +1s for everyone. Our normal crew is actually THF, WHM, MNK, and either BRD or WAR depending on what needs to be done. If we have to evasion tank it, the THF does a solid job and I might go off and solo near-by mobs for more pop items or TEs or for TP to use on boss.

And it's also partly because of my e-peen. I've never really had more than 1200 HP, but now that I can get 3600+ you're damned right I'm going to!

[Rellikard]

Between the two, DA. But really STR.

I didn't think about a Shamshir. Someone told me before a multihit/DA sword was the way to go. So between the two, definitely STR Shamshir or should I just go ahead and do both?

[Neisan]

Str would be better overall unless you're never benefiting from the attack.

[Mercilessturtle]

I'd like to see how you figure. I think Gnarled Horn blows SS away, especially for WAR, although I'd be interested to see how you (or anybody) justifies using SS over Gnarled Horn.

WTF? Why would you even consider GH for war?

[Mojo]

Well in this case I will tell you what I hate to hear, its from observation. On MNK my damage went up by a lot in Impetus phase and I definitely kill everything much faster. Ofc GH is still batter if you need more counter and less tp moves.

As for WAR its the same but its coming from my friend who play WAR all the time. Idk maybe its because of Ukko's high base crit rate but he also prefers SS for pure damage.

I haven't had the time to think about a good way to evaluate Impetus (independent binomial trials that are applied in a non-independent way = hella damn complicated), but consider this.

Cruor buffs put your critical hit rate is 25% and Warriors shouldn't melee in anything that increases your critical hit rate, so you're looking at around 55% with Razed Ruins. Warrior gets an 8% critical damage bonus trait by default, 10% from AF3+2 feet, 4% (average) from Blood Rage and another 30% from Razed ruins. So you're at 55% critical hit rate and 52% critical damage bonus with just Razed Ruins. The best case scenario for critical damage bonus in a critical damage bonus vs critical hit rate comparison is capped attack and on mobs 90 or below (resulting in the highest average non crit pDIF thus making the static +1.0 to pDIF as least significant as it can ever be.)

For the rest of this comparison, I'm going to assume that 1.) pDIF functions are approximately normally distributed and 2.) the revised two handed pDIF functions are approximately the same as the old ones. I think the first assumption is quite reasonable. The second one is just the best I can do given what I've seen regarding pDIF, although it probably isn't far off either way.

Capped attack results in an average non critical pDIF of 2.0 and an average critical pDIF of 2.8 (before randomization, which is a percentage anyways and thus applied marginally equal to both.) The global average pDIF is the sum of these numbers weighed with your non critical and critical hit rate.

Atma		Critical Hit Rate	Critical Damage Bonus	Non Critical pDIF	Critical pDIF	Average pDIF
Gnarled Horn	0.75			1.52			2.0			4.256		3.692
Sanguine Scythe	0.55			1.82			2.0			5.096		3.703

I just sort of lumped the critical damage bonus in with pDIF (which doesn't actually occur, but it is accurate for comparing.) So it would appear that Sanguine Scythe wins by less than a marginal half percent. However, there are a few additional details to consider.

1.) This is the 'best case' scenario for Sanguine Scythe. The level correction function and non capped cRatio are both going to greatly increase the effectiveness of Gnarled Horn.

2.) Blood Rage often contributes more than a 4% average. This is because it's used on demand. It's probably going to be active more than 20% of the time you're fighting something. The more it's active, the less effective Sanguine Scythe is.

3.) Weaponskills TP bonuses are not considered. This would improve the odds for Sanguine Scythe as there is a critical hit rate bonus on Ukko's Fury and Raging Rush and the gear you weaponskill in may also have critical hit rate bonuses. However, it's not clearly understood as to what they are so it's difficult to try and assess this.

4.) Other defensive factors, Subtle Blow and Counter, are not considered.

Either way, in I don't think that it's a blowout at all. My eyeball placebo experience says that Gnarled Horn seems to produce better results, although I'm generally only paying attention to fights against tougher mobs.

[Vyrr]

Outside
Goetia Mantle or Searing Cape
Tier 4 and 5 nukes

[dasva]

For pure dmg always chose searing mantle

[Mercilessturtle]

3.) Weaponskills TP bonuses are not considered. This would improve the odds for Sanguine Scythe as there is a critical hit rate bonus on Ukko's Fury and Raging Rush and the gear you weaponskill in may also have critical hit rate bonuses. However, it's not clearly understood as to what they are so it's difficult to try and assess this.

It is pretty funny the way you downplay this, when what you are really saying is "I am only bothering to compare 50% (or less) of your total damage to draw a bad conclusion". Even with low pdif GH only manages to pull ahead by ~3% on tp phase damage. If you assume a lowball of 10% crit rate bonus for WS, GH loses in overall damage at any reasonable pdif average a war or /war will be at. If ukko has a crit bonus as high as people claim, then GH ends up less than 20% crit rate for half your damage, and gets completely blown away.

[Mojo]

It is pretty funny the way you downplay this, when what you are really saying is "I am only bothering to compare 50% (or less) of your total damage to draw a bad conclusion". Even with low pdif GH only manages to pull ahead by ~3% on tp phase damage. If you assume a lowball of 10% crit rate bonus for WS, GH loses in overall damage at any reasonable pdif average a war or /war will be at. If ukko has a crit bonus as high as people claim, then GH ends up less than 20% crit rate for half your damage, and gets completely blown away.

Seems like you have a very biased opinion of something you barely bothered to put much thought into. If empyreon weapon skill critical hit rate bonuses were that high I'm sure it would have been observed and remarked on already considering that there are over 5000 Kannagis around.

Atma		Critical Hit Rate	Critical Damage Bonus	Non Critical pDIF	Critical pDIF	Average pDIF
Gnarled Horn	0.75			1.52			2.0			4.256		3.692
Sanguine Scythe	0.55			1.82			2.0			5.096		3.703

Atma		Critical Hit Rate	Critical Damage Bonus	Non Critical pDIF	Critical pDIF	Average pDIF
Gnarled Horn	0.98			1.52			2.0			4.256		4.211
Sanguine Scythe	0.78			1.82			2.0			5.096		4.415

The first is melee the second is weaponskill, assuming a 20% bonus (exceptionally high) from Ukko's Fury and 3% from AF3+2 head. The weaponskill damage is ahead by less than a marginal 5% and the overall damage is going to be some weighted combination of them equating to less than 5%. This entire comparison is also rooted on giving Sanguine Scythe every possible advantage and it's not even ahead by more than 5% (certainly not blowing anything away by any means.)

Atma		Critical Hit Rate	Critical Damage Bonus	Non Critical pDIF	Critical pDIF	Average pDIF
Gnarled Horn	0.75			1.52			1.5			3.800		3.225
Sanguine Scythe	0.55			1.82			1.5			4.550		3.178

Atma		Critical Hit Rate	Critical Damage Bonus	Non Critical pDIF	Critical pDIF	Average pDIF
Gnarled Horn	0.98			1.52			1.5			3.800		3.754
Sanguine Scythe	0.78			1.82			1.5			4.550		3.879

This is a mob only 10 levels above the player in which cRatio is still capped. Gnarled Horn is already ahead in melee damage and the weaponskill damage gap is closing. Some EXP mobs are at least level 98, I'm sure many of the stronger NMs are at least level 105. And again, this assumes your cRatio is always capped, which is certainly not true.

[Mercilessturtle]

Biased opinion? No, I am just pointing out how your entire post was nonsense and you tossed that disclaimer down there as #3 in the "why this is actually bullshit" list. Yes, people have remarked on the high crit rate bonus several empyrean WS get. I'm not sure why you think the number of kannagis floating around has any impact on the number of people mentioning the crit rate bonus of ukkos. Blood rage adds crit rate as well as crit damage btw.

[Mojo]

Alright asshole, if you think it's bullshit then feel free to provide some better way of analyzing it. What I provided was much more fair and unbiased than simply stating that Gnarled Horn is completely blown away without providing any kind of explanation as to why that is so, which is pretty much all that you've done at this point. It should be pretty obvious as to why Kannagi is relevant. GH/RR are both staple atma for Blade: Hi. A 100% critical hit rate would have to be observed on Blade: Hi with those atma in order for the bonus on Ukko's Fury to cut into Gnarled Horn when Blood Rage is down (which I did overlook before.)

[Deader2818]

GH is more of a staple for Kannagi due to Kannagi having a 60% Agi body but maybe thats just me that thinks that....

[Mojo]

It doesn't matter why it's a staple for Kannagi but just that because it is a staple then a 100% critical hit rate would have been observed by everybody with a Kannagi as long as they were using it if the critical hit bonus for Blade: Hi and other empyreon weaponskills was 25% or greater.

[Deader2818]

So, in your opinion, any job with a crit WS should be using GH?

GH/RR/AoA is the best for WAR, MNK, DRG, NIN, PUP?

[Mercilessturtle]

You don't need a better way of analyzing it, you need to quit having such a hardon for sticking to your preconceived notion of what is better and look at the math. Your numbers already show GH loses, and you aren't accounting for the crit rate from blood rage. Kannagi has nothing to do with anything, I have no idea why you think every emp WS would have the same crit rate bonus.