FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto

[Chun Liroy]

WAR has damage mitigation. It's called throw up Retaliation so you can Ukko faster more quickly and kill whatever you're fighting faster. Solo Chloris in like 10 seconds like that.

Fucking lol. So true.

[Kaisha]

Abyssea happened? :3

Well if 'Abyssea happened' where Abyssea = impossible to balance due to bad design decisions, then they can stfu and level up the job they wish there's was to 90 in under a day.

[NynJa]

That is better than nothing.. 2 tp you didn't have while casting a spell.

And in that time you probably could have swung your sword(s) and received 10 TP....

[Dimmauk]

My hate management tool in abyssea is called Atma of the Apocalypse. LOL

WHMs only worry about the tanks and the main Proc'ers. Everyone else gets the Ivan Drago quote "If he dies, he dies."

[Septimus]

And in that time you probably could have swung your sword(s) and received 10 TP....

But the difference between BLU and DRK is that a BLU actually casts spells because they do a lot of damage. You would cast that spell anyway, if you got TP back from the spell it would be a bonus. (Not the most useful thing on the planet, but a bonus none-the-less.)

[drwaffles]

I like how their idea of defining class roles more clearly is buffing classes in a very similar manner to what's been done for the past however many years (WHM gets more ways to combat status ailments, support jobs get more borderline useless buffing/debuffing capabilities, BLM gets to nuke moar harderly, WAR gets buffs out the wazoo and THF/NIN/DRG/DRK get the shaft). I know this post is just a brainstorm of sorts, but if their list of potential tweaks - which are very similar to stuff we've encountered or heard of before - is the best they can come up with in order to generate some excitement for the game's future then I'm not holding my breath for much in the way of innovation when adjustments are announced officially. Really, in order for any of this stuff to be worthwhile they're going to have to spend a lot of time working on endgame mobs, making them challenging enough that any of these adjustments are actually helpful as opposed to being purely aesthetic and, therefore, superfluous.

Also agreed @ giving WHMs the ability to remove amnesia rather than charm. Charm is one of the rare mob abilities that can actually create interesting situations during otherwise boring fights; the only thing amnesia creates is unrelenting tedium.

[Khamsin]

I like how their idea of defining class roles more clearly is buffing classes in a very similar manner to what's been done for the past however many years (WHM gets more ways to combat status ailments, support jobs get more borderline useless buffing/debuffing capabilities, BLM gets to nuke moar harderly, WAR gets buffs out the wazoo and THF/NIN/DRG/DRK get the shaft). I know this post is just a brainstorm of sorts, but if their list of potential tweaks - which are very similar to stuff we've encountered or heard of before - is the best they can come up with in order to generate some excitement for the game's future then I'm not holding my breath for much in the way of innovation when adjustments are announced officially. Really, in order for any of this stuff to be worthwhile they're going to have to spend a lot of time working on endgame mobs, making them challenging enough that any of these adjustments are actually helpful as opposed to being purely aesthetic and, therefore, superfluous.

Also agreed @ giving WHMs the ability to remove amnesia rather than charm. Charm is one of the rare mob abilities that can actually create interesting situations during otherwise boring fights; the only thing amnesia creates is unrelenting tedium.

They didn't say they were redefining the jobs, just that this was their vision for them. It's not surprising that their vision is so consistent with what the jobs already are.

[Septimus]

They didn't say they were redefining the jobs, just that this was their vision for them. It's not surprising that their vision is so consistent with what the jobs already are.

Except for RDM, DRK, and SCH where their visions of the jobs are nothing like how they are played. (I.E. Not at all.)

[drwaffles]

They didn't say they were redefining the jobs, just that this was their vision for them. It's not surprising that their vision is so consistent with what the jobs already are.

I know, I said "defining class roles more clearly", which is different. Unless they have some seriously clever ideas for mob design in the future, these changes will barely affect the job system dynamic at all. At this point in the game what's needed in order to help define job roles are situations in which the different jobs' unique skill sets are actually useful (i.e. significantly more effective than simply using a heavier DD) or essential.

[Lordender]

If SE hasent figured out by now, they're never going to figure it out after 9 years. Abyssea is poor @ best in terms of execution, the concept is something that looks great on paper but what really happened is they alienated too many jobs. FFXI has always had this problem where only a few jobs were acceptable @ the end game level and the game has basically become "Do more with less" as the game aged.

I think thats what has always bothered me about FFXI is the fact that it doesn't matter how skillful/knowledgable you become at a job but more about playing the standard of whats acceptable.

Short version, you could be the best pup,drg,drk on the server, know the job inside and out, play flawlessly to get the most out of the job and still be 2nd Tier to a war,nin,mnk.

[Byrthnoth]

High XP/HR is SE's solution for "broo hoo hoo no one loves my job baw haw haw"

If your job isn't useful, level another. They don't seem to have much sympathy for people that are emotionally attached to their JA and magic list.

[Ophannus]

SE's big mistake was adding unnecesary jobs. SCH's strategems/spells could have easily been dispersed to WHM/BLM/RDM without the need for a new job. DNC's steps could have been renamed and given to THF or WAR as 'Rends'. BLU is unique. PUP was unnecessary. Some jobs still don't have a 'specialty' after all of these years. SAM's niche is weapon skills/skillchains, but DRG still is very hazy. DRK is supposed to be the strongest raw DMG melee class since they have top tier STR, highest base attack, absorbs str, last resort, soul eater, strongest DPS weapon class but in the end their weapon skills are poop. DRK needs more damage, DRG needs a 'niche' other than filling the role of generic DD which any other melee could fill. Wish SE would stop focusing on the wyvern and give us some more things to play with. I wouldn't mind an attack or damage boosting JA to use before a WS akin to Sneak Attack/Berserk/Warcry/Blood Rage/Soul Eater/Boost/Flourishes/Last Resort/Hasso. Something native to us that cant be subbed. Or at least make Wyvern breath dmg more accurate and not absed on current HP but max HP so we can get a nice 200` consistent boost to all of our WS from elemental breaths.

[Septimus]

If SE hasent figured out by now, they're never going to figure it out after 9 years. Abyssea is poor @ best in terms of execution, the concept is something that looks great on paper but what really happened is they alienated too many jobs. FFXI has always had this problem where only a few jobs were acceptable @ the end game level and the game has basically become "Do more with less" as the game aged.

I think thats what has always bothered me about FFXI is the fact that it doesn't matter how skillful/knowledgable you become at a job but more about playing the standard of whats acceptable.

Short version, you could be the best pup,drg,drk on the server, know the job inside and out, play flawlessly to get the most out of the job and still be 2nd Tier to a war,nin,mnk.

The FFXI team did not alienate jobs with Abyssea, the player base did. There is nothing to prevent players from taking more people than just a WAR, NIN, MNK, BLM, WHM, BLM- the players decided that "procs or GTFO" was the method of play for the game.

Abyssea was the single best thing that ever happened to FFXI. It wasn't "a four-hour, fighting the same shit until you want to kill yourself" grind-fest like Dynamis. It wasn't a "let's go kill a bunch of mobs, look, there's the NM I want, oh well, it didn't drop my shit for the four-hundred-millionth time" spiral of depression like Salvage. It wasn't a "let's hope that enough people show up today so that we can actually proceed to Odin, then hope that Odin isn't a cock-monkey that only drops shit Abjurations" slog like Einherjar. It wasn't a "Oh, you want to do Jailers, excuse me while I hang myself" never-get-a-torque-jamboree like Sea. Abyssea is actually rewarding. If you kill monsters, you will get stuff. I know, this is a bizarre concept for FFXI, getting rewarded for your effort, but I hear that in other games it is quite a popular thing.

The players picking their favorite jobs and saying the hell with every other job is nothing new. The only way that you can fix that is to make every single job in the game required to do an NM, and that can't happen because there are only 18 slots in an alliance. But that aside, you are going to have people forced to level and come on jobs that they don't want to be on because "the game demands it".

[Tagus]

For the record, I'd just like to say it's nice to see some of the classic BG'ers coming out of the woodwork on this topic, if only because it makes for good reading. As far as the actual topic goes, I wouldn't think the future of FFXI is really going to depend tremendously on where they take the various jobs. Several jobs got crushed by Abyssea and nobody ragequit over it. What's going to really matter is the quality of the new content they come up with. They've been rehashing old zones for a couple of expansions now and had some varying levels of success with it. They got our attention again with Abyssea, although the whole proc'ing thing irritates me for some reason. The question they've really got in front of them now is, in what direction do they develop new content after showing us the glory of easy-mode ffxi?

Edit: I guess I should add that my hope would be they continue along the same trajectory as they started with abyssea, because I've got oldballs now, in addition to a wife, a newborn, and a freaking mortgage, and don't have time for this shit anymore.

[Ardrial]

The FFXI team did not alienate jobs with Abyssea, the player base did. There is nothing to prevent players from taking more people than just a WAR, NIN, MNK, BLM, WHM, BLM- the players decided that "procs or GTFO" was the method of play for the game.

Abyssea was the single best thing that ever happened to FFXI. It wasn't "a four-hour, fighting the same shit until you want to kill yourself" grind-fest like Dynamis. It wasn't a "let's go kill a bunch of mobs, look, there's the NM I want, oh well, it didn't drop my shit for the four-hundred-millionth time" spiral of depression like Salvage. It wasn't a "let's hope that enough people show up today so that we can actually proceed to Odin, then hope that Odin isn't a cock-monkey that only drops shit Abjurations" slog like Einherjar. It wasn't a "Oh, you want to do Jailers, excuse me while I hang myself" never-get-a-torque-jamboree like Sea. Abyssea is actually rewarding. If you kill monsters, you will get stuff. I know, this is a bizarre concept for FFXI, getting rewarded for your effort, but I hear that in other games it is quite a popular thing.

The players picking their favorite jobs and saying the hell with every other job is nothing new. The only way that you can fix that is to make every single job in the game required to do an NM, and that can't happen because there are only 18 slots in an alliance. But that aside, you are going to have people forced to level and come on jobs that they don't want to be on because "the game demands it".

/clap

[ronin sparthos]

The FFXI team did not alienate jobs with Abyssea, the player base did. There is nothing to prevent players from taking more people than just a WAR, NIN, MNK, BLM, WHM, BLM- the players decided that "procs or GTFO" was the method of play for the game.

DD like MNK/NIN/DNC/THF are easy enough to keep alive with a single mage thanks to tons of buffs, Vision and Scars content became extremely simple thanks to level 90 and there is no challenge to justify bringing more than the bare minimum.

Individuals bring more people when the monsters difficulty demand it. Very few things in Abyssea do and so the current trend of 2-4 people sweeping everything is popular.

How exactly did the players decide that "procs or GTFO" was the standard btw? SE decided that when they designed the proc system knowing full well certain classes would be hosed.The system is constructed in such a way that if you don't hit procs, you're right back to pre-Abyssean droprates where things can be either good or in the toilet.

The only thing SE definitively got right was making every DD job viable for alliance EXP through cruor/atma buffs. Of course we got overkill by the time Heroes came around and EXP became a system of AFKing at the Dominion Tacticians.

Abyssea was the single best thing that ever happened to FFXI. It wasn't "a four-hour, fighting the same shit until you want to kill yourself" grind-fest like Dynamis. It wasn't a "let's go kill a bunch of mobs, look, there's the NM I want, oh well, it didn't drop my shit for the four-hundred-millionth time" spiral of depression like Salvage. It wasn't a "let's hope that enough people show up today so that we can actually proceed to Odin, then hope that Odin isn't a cock-monkey that only drops shit Abjurations" slog like Einherjar. It wasn't a "Oh, you want to do Jailers, excuse me while I hang myself" never-get-a-torque-jamboree like Sea. Abyssea is actually rewarding. If you kill monsters, you will get stuff. I know, this is a bizarre concept for FFXI, getting rewarded for your effort, but I hear that in other games it is quite a popular thing.

No one's going to argue that Abyssea didn't do the game good but too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing and that is the situation in FFXI right now.

With buffs being so potent from key items, buffers get undercut, enfeebling is wholly unnecessary when a WHM can keep you going indefinitely and potent damage is just a few atmas away. Who cares if you can Drakesbane repeatedly when jobs like NIN can do the same damage while hitting procs and evading far more attacks?

The players picking their favorite jobs and saying the hell with every other job is nothing new. The only way that you can fix that is to make every single job in the game required to do an NM, and that can't happen because there are only 18 slots in an alliance. But that aside, you are going to have people forced to level and come on jobs that they don't want to be on because "the game demands it".

Funny thing is that Voidwatch has the potential to be the wild card where any job can fit the alliance. The loot system is terrible right now but the idea itself is sound and needed if SE wants to break the current trend.

With a virtually limitless pool of procs and the Abyssean crutches thrown away, you have a situation where players are baited into bringing the previously obsolete jobs back into the fold if for no other reason than procs. It's actually refreshing when you know... you need a tank class to hold a mob and DD aren't just rushing everything down thanks to overpowered buffs.

[Ksandra]

SE's big mistake was adding unnecesary jobs.

I actually completely disagree with this. The fact is that there are tons of players out there who fucking love those added jobs. Most mmos find that demand for something new, and they were smart to do so. The mistake in relation to those jobs wasn't the fact they were added, it was that they don't make them perhaps more useful than they are for certain ones. BLU and DNC I definitely think have founded their niche. Probably the worst atm is COR with pup coming in second. But it's not so much that they shouldn't have existed, just SE needs to open their eyes and see what needs to be done to fix them. And that can be said of pretty much every class old and new.


I would rape your face if they were to take dnc away just so drg could have steps. >

[Raen Ryong]

If they took Dancer away I would be sad as it would mean no more cats in AF.

I think it's partially a playerbase problem and partially an SE problem. Their patching process is so slow and infrequent and the DD jobs so similar in function that the strongest one(s) remain the strongest for a very long time. If the balance was changed much more often, people would perhaps adapt to a more mercurial style of play in respect to choosing jobs as they simply wouldn't "know" which the strongest was. At the moment, given a choice between a WAR and a PUP etc, the answer seems incredibly obvious.

The constant changing (if not in a negative direction) would encourage people to level jobs they genuinely enjoy rather than those which are strictly useful at the present time too, I think. However, I am probably not the best person to ask since I have always only leveled jobs for myself. If they happened to be useful, hurray. Unfortunately, three of mine became DRK PLD and RDM so ... yeah.

[Okan]

High XP/HR is SE's solution for "broo hoo hoo no one loves my job baw haw haw"

If your job isn't useful, level another. They don't seem to have much sympathy for people that are emotionally attached to their JA and magic list.

Nothing against you, but I have to say I hate that mentality of most players in this game. "lolJOB. Go level something useful."

If I love playing a job, regardless of what it is, I shouldn't have to stop playing it to form to the social standard. I've been in that boat of "No, you can't come as BST. You have to come as BLM." And this was after confessing, very clearly, that I hate playing as BLM and I have virtually zero gear and merits minus what my WHM can share with it. Whereas my BST had the best stuff I could farm or buy virtually solo and as many merits as I can get on it.

I really don't understand why people have to segregate "good jobs" from "bad jobs" when there really isn't a difference.

[Deader2818]

I actually completely disagree with this. The fact is that there are tons of players out there who fucking love those added jobs. Most mmos find that demand for something new, and they were smart to do so. The mistake in relation to those jobs wasn't the fact they were added, it was that they don't make them perhaps more useful than they are for certain ones. BLU and DNC I definitely think have founded their niche. Probably the worst atm is COR with pup coming in second. But it's not so much that they shouldn't have existed, just SE needs to open their eyes and see what needs to be done to fix them. And that can be said of pretty much every class old and new.

I would rape your face if they were to take dnc away just so drg could have steps. >

What exactly is wrong with COR?

The problem with DNC, COR, BLU, PUP, SCH was they didnt have a defining rule and are hybrid type jobs and for whatever reason, most people who play FFXI think hybrid jobs are useless.