Bomb hits Norway's Prime Minister's office

[Lucienne]

It's an easy language to learn though, especially if you already speak a germanic language.

Wish we had that requirement.

You're finnish!
The only people able to move there would be estonians!

[Hellfury]

The reason they introduced the mandatory language classes is that they want to make sure that those coming to Norway have the ability to function in Norwegian society (and the less official reason, they want to make sure women and young from cultures that don't practice gender equality to have a better chance).
It's still a problem that only the male has any grasp of Norwegian, but they're trying.

we actually have 3 national languages, something with has been a topic for hefty debates for at least 20 years now.

[richardd]

It's an easy language to learn though, especially if you already speak a germanic language.

Wish we had that requirement.

not for me, lol. i spent about 1 year looking up tutorials rosetta stone doesnt offer it, either. norway is such a low key country to most americans, lol. a lot of my friends dont even know where it is on the world map

and i tried being citizen like 1 year ago, and decided i needed to really wait. there were no courses that i can complete 300 hours of nordic languages in, unless i did it online, and the ability to cancel your US citizenship in exchange for another turned out it was more grueling than i thought. unless i was getting the run-around. i think ill just marry a Norwegian woman and do it that way lol

[Hyan]

I figured it might be easier to learn it by using swedish as a stepping stone ,idk. I think its more common.

Anki offers a few decks with swedish vocab at least. The grammar is fairly simple.

[richardd]

I figured it might be easier to learn it by using swedish as a stepping stone ,idk.

yeah, that's my only choice. my ex told me it would probably be easier for me to be a swedish citizen 1st and move my way up. i think luci said the same thing, too a long time ago, but im a bit spoiled. i've been to Stockholm to some country southern parts and love the country, too. but i know what i want lol. My heart is in norway and i dont care how grueling or painful it is, when i want something, i WILL get it lol. i just gotta work my ass off and finish up this school crap.

[Hellfury]

I'd be careful about going via swedish, they share similarities, but you'd get a pretty bad start on your spoken Norwegian, and you'd have to unlearn the dialect/words choices etc. You might end up with a lot of double work.
If I were you, I'd start grabbing norwegian movies with subtitles.
Read a lot of Ibsen in both English and Norwegian
I'll try to remember to ask around a little about net-resources tomorrow.

edit: well, you'd have to live here for a long time before you'd get a citizenship regardless. You'd easily be able to take the education here, unless you need to be ready when you get here because or work/whatever.

take a look at this, see if it helps you any (for the capital) http://www.english.oslovo.no/
even if they don't themselves have the solution, they probably know who does.

some of these institutions might be able to give you a tip: http://www.studyinnorway.no/Norwegia...-South-America

[richardd]

I'd be careful about going via swedish, they share similarities, but you'd get a pretty bad start on your spoken Norwegian, and you'd have to unlearn the dialect/words choices etc. You might end up with a lot of double work.
If I were you, I'd start grabbing norwegian movies with subtitles.
Read a lot of Ibsen in both English and Norwegian
I'll try to remember to ask around a little about net-resources tomorrow.

that would be absolutely great if you could do that. i've actually found a few sources myself for free, via torrent, and they're not bad really. Its common phrases used by the people that you put on a disk in your car or mp3 on your ipod and repeat over and over out loud. but its in a bergen dialect, which is different from the people in oslo, or askim, lol. my ex gf says they sound more annoying, lol. and thats why i was a bit hesitant to start off with a swedish language. i would rather have my foundation in Norwegian and than learn the sweden/finland ways later lol

[Hellfury]

Dear god, whatever you do, stay the 1#¤% away from Bergen dialect. If you're ever going to trust me on anything, this is it!

[Hyan]

Don't even try learning finnish lol. We speak english or swedish anyway. The difference is like with spanish and english.

Although american accent is so fun to listen to.

Didn't even realize theres a big difference between the two, but I'm not a native so figures.

[Hellfury]

Actually, what you should really do, is contact Sons of Norway http://www.sofn.com/home/index.jsp
if those guys don't know good sources of learning Norwegian, there's probably no one who do. They can probably point you in the right direction (just be mindful of salesmen etc. )

their "about page". I know of these dudes from before, I think some of my family in the US are members, and I've heard of them a tonne of times, so I assume they're good.

Spoiler: show

http://www.sofn.com/images/trans.gif The mission of Sons of Norway is to promote and to preserve the heritage and culture of Norway, to celebrate our relationship with other Nordic Countries, and provide quality insurance and financial products to our members.

Sons of Norway was organized as a fraternal benefit society by 18 Norwegian immigrants in Minneapolis, Minnesota, on January 16, 1895. The purposes and goals of the Founding Fathers were to protect members of Sons of Norway and their families from the financial hardships experienced during times of sickness or death in the family. Over time, the mission of Sons of Norway was expanded to include the preservation of Norwegian heritage and culture in our Society. We have grown since our beginning and are now the largest Norwegian organization outside Norway.

We promote Norwegian traditions and fraternal fellowship through the cultural and social opportunities offered in local lodge and district lodge activities. These activities include language camps and classes, scholarships, handicrafts, cooking and heritage classes, heritage programs, sports programs, travel opportunities, Viking Magazine, and outreach programs sponsored by the Sons of Norway Foundation.

We offer financial protection through our field staff representatives to Sons of Norway members and their families against the hardships of sickness and death through a variety of quality insurance programs.

heck, call the consulate, they'll probably love it.

parental unit says: check http://www.norway.org/studywork/study/Local-theme/

can you find this in a torrent: http://www.amazon.com/Talk-Now-Learn.../dp/B00004VUA5 ?

[richardd]

yeah, that was the 1st site i stumbled on lol. im a bit of a jew when it comes to saving money and spending it unless i absolutely have to ;x, but i think i will make an exception lol. that it the site the embassy suggested as well when i was on my 2nd trip lol. but thanks for the tips you two!

[Hellfury]

ngh, it's one of those things you never think about until someone asks.
You could also check around about grants, there's bound to be a fair amount of stipends or similar? I wouldn't know where on earth to begin looking though I'm afraid.

but, time to black out. tomorrow will be interesting with regards to how they proceed legal wise.


Edit: seems the ones either came here young enough to learn it easily early on, or took off-line courses of various sorts.
(I just realised how old I am, there was no internet for this 15+ years ago)

[Elvis]

So the NYTimes, interviews some of the shooters influences.

Robert Spencer
http://www.jihadwatch.org/ - which has a section called 'Islam 101' : http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html (basically, there are no 'moderate Muslims', those who profess to be peaceful are practicing "Taqiyya" - religious deception; Spencer spends a considerable amount of time spelling this out)

Pamela Gellar
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/

Gates of Vienna
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/

NYTimes article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/25debate.html?_r=2

In the United States, critics have asserted that the intense spotlight on the threat from Islamic militants has unfairly vilified Muslim Americans while dangerously playing down the threat of attacks from other domestic radicals. The author of a 2009 Department of Homeland Security report on right-wing extremism withdrawn by the department after criticism from conservatives repeated on Sunday his claim that the department had tilted too heavily toward the threat from Islamic militants.

The revelations about Mr. Breivik’s American influences exploded on the blogs over the weekend, putting Mr. Spencer and other self-described “counterjihad” activists on the defensive, as their critics suggested that their portrayal of Islam as a threat to the West indirectly fostered the crimes in Norway.

Mr. Spencer wrote on his Web site, jihadwatch.org, that “the blame game” had begun, “as if killing a lot of children aids the defense against the global jihad and Islamic supremacism, or has anything remotely to do with anything we have ever advocated.” He did not mention Mr. Breivik’s voluminous quotations from his writings.

The Gates of Vienna, a blog that ordinarily keeps up a drumbeat of anti-Islamist news and commentary, closed its pages to comments Sunday “due to the unusual situation in which it has recently found itself.”

Its operator, who describes himself as a Virginia consultant and uses the pseudonym “Baron Bodissey,” wrote on the site Sunday that “at no time has any part of the Counterjihad advocated violence.”

The name of that Web site — a reference to the siege of Vienna in 1683 by Muslim fighters who, the blog says in its headnote, “seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe” — was echoed in the title Mr. Breivik chose for his manifesto: “2083: A European Declaration of Independence.” He chose that year, the 400th anniversary of the siege, as the target for the triumph of Christian forces in the European civil war he called for to drive out Islamic influence.

Marc Sageman, a former C.I.A. officer and a consultant on terrorism, said it would be unfair to attribute Mr. Breivik’s violence to the writers who helped shape his world view. But at the same time, he said the counterjihad writers do argue that the fundamentalist Salafi branch of Islam “is the infrastructure from which Al Qaeda emerged. Well, they and their writings are the infrastructure from which Breivik emerged.”

“This rhetoric,” he added, “is not cost-free.”

That's the basic gist of the article. It's still Islamic radicalism at fault here according to 'terrorism experts' and 'anti-Jihad activists'.

Mr. Breivik’s declaration did not name Mr. Kaczynski or acknowledge the numerous passages copied from the Unabomber’s 1995 manifesto, in which the Norwegian substituted “multiculturalists” or “cultural Marxists” for Mr. Kaczynski’s “leftists” and made other small wording changes.

By contrast, he quoted the American and European counterjihad writers by name, notably Mr. Spencer, author of 10 books, including “Islam Unveiled” and “The Truth About Muhammad.”

Mr. Breivik frequently cited another blog, Atlas Shrugs, and recommended the Gates of Vienna among Web sites. Pamela Geller, an outspoken critic of Islam who runs Atlas Shrugs, wrote on her blog Sunday that any assertion that she or other antijihad writers bore any responsibility for Mr. Breivik’s actions was “ridiculous.”

“If anyone incited him to violence, it was Islamic supremacists,” she wrote.

[miokomioko]

So, when a complete sociopath massacres a bunch of people... you can now blame people that have never even met them?

[Hellfury]

Any port in a storm. They're officially unofficially announcing that they expect to start adjusting the deathcount downwards. More to come later.

[Lucienne]

Some bits from the Swedish debate:

The experts on right wing extremism claim that the idea of change through revolution has been circulating among nordic right wing groups for a while. There have been signs indicating some sort of action of violence, but the guy says he never expected anyhting of this size. He also said that in a way it is much easier to follow the islamists, because they tend to group, while there are no organised right wing radicalist groups in Scandinavia ready to commit acts of violence, it's more on individual level which makes it harder to track.

Breivik claims to have been in contact with an English group called English Defence League, which is what inspired him initially.

The court will be "behind closed doors". They don't want to give him the opportunity to spread his ideas among the press, but apparently they are also worried that he might try to send coded messages to collaborators. Breivik himself prefers an open trial, he has also demanded to wear a uniform in court. He hasn't specified what sort though.

He'll more than likely be put in custody for 8 weeks, which is double the normal time in Norway.

He has stated that he wanted to kill the former prime minister of Norway, Gro Harlem Brundtland.

He has published a list with 9.393 Swedes that need to be executed. Among those are politicians, doctors, teachers, journalists, anyone contributing to a multicultural society.

The number of victims on Utöya might be lower.

[Lucienne]

They've arrested a person in Wroclaw, Polen. The guy owns an online chemical store and supposedly sold chemicals to Breivik.

[Lexa]

He's being held in custody for eight weeks, four of which will be in complete solitary detainment. From the press photographs, it doesn't look like his demand to wear a uniform was granted (duh).

I'm headed downtown for the memorial gathering in a couple of hours. There are gatherings all over the country, apparently.

[Lucavi]

So, when a complete sociopath massacres a bunch of people... you can now blame people that have never even met them?

You expect them to blame their own religion or anyone associated with it? Hell, you expect them to blame their own skin color?

If it were blacks or asians (yellows) instead of Muslims (browns) "invading" Norway en masse, this would have happened all the same. Who would these "experts" be blaming then? Pretty sure we all know the answer.

[Hellfury]

Press Conference:
estimated number of deaths reduced to 68 at Utøya.
Court meeting behind closed doors, he was denied to attend in uniform, he was not allowed to read his manifesto.
8 weeks confinement as Lexa stated.
He claims there are two other cells operating in the country.
"This is the risk we run in a free society, we will not change" - commentary from police representative at conference.
There have been no arrests in Poland in regards to this case.


on other notes:

There are indeed gatherings all over the country. The claims of aggressive behavior posted in several foreign newspapers are dealing with a small minority of the population, and is not representative.
The "this changes everything" statements that are presented in some media (such as cnn), as their sources, one of the sources they cite is a bloody tabloid editor (granted, and a clinical psychologist), in general, as a nation, we are determined not to change.

(according to the press - he seems to have been on a police watch list since march, but it's just a headline with "more coming")

edits:
death count in the capital up to 8 (from 7)

back on conference:
Precisely where he will be kept is as of yet undecide.
the court meeting was a relatively "calm affair", he seemed unaffected by the chaos he had caused, but voiced that he wished for open doors.