Education in America

[solanis]

The only thing cursive is useful for is creating your own signature, and that's kind of been thrown out the window. We don't need that shit.

On another note, I don't think the problem is shitty teachers or even standardized tests. I think we have a lot of great teachers out there that get discredited for the one or two REALLY shitty ones that show up on occasion. The problem is that kids don't want to learn, and I think this is because we don't focus on finding ways to inspire kids to learn. I, and other friends of mine, excelled because we wanted to learn, and we saw plenty of others fail because they simply didn't want to learn. And there seems to be a growing segment of kids that don't want to learn. We need to solve that issue before going anywhere else in my opinion.

in my experience, that's pretty accurate. we take for granted that we have such a linguistically casual society, but these kids aren't able to build the formal foundation that abbreviations and slang are built on. kind of like how the abstract masters were all genuises at realism initially. creative teaching methods are really interesting, but they have to reinforce building blocks like grammar and the importance of reading. reading really is the most important thing, as long as kids read a lot of books they'll pick shit up. niggas is sponges.

[Day]

Need to take the time we spent on cursive, get a buddy system going with all these mexican immigrants and teach them how to speak american

[Kaslo]

in my experience, that's pretty accurate. we take for granted that we have such a linguistically casual society, but these kids aren't able to build the formal foundation that abbreviations and slang are built on. kind of like how the abstract masters were all genuises at realism initially. creative teaching methods are really interesting, but they have to reinforce building blocks like grammar and the importance of reading. reading really is the most important thing, as long as kids read a lot of books they'll pick shit up. niggas is sponges.

I will say I was big into book fairs, and the once a month book orders our elementary did. Goosebumps like a mo fo. But eventually stopped reading, except that involved in final fantasies or textbooks, and went into a heavy math/science focus.

[solanis]

I will say I was big into book fairs, and the once a month book orders our elementary did. Goosebumps like a mo fo. But eventually stopped reading, except that involved in final fantasies or textbooks, and went into a heavy math/science focus.

as long as they keep reading published stuff, they'll be okay. the subject matter doesn't have much to do with it, it's the constant exposure to grammatically correct writing and formal diction. I'd venture that even playing dialogue-heavy text in RPGs is positive, since they're getting that exposure. let kids play RPGs, turn off the voice acting, etc. renaissance pedagogical theory was all about exposure, ie, make the kids read a shitton of the classics so they absorb the style of writing and grammar precepts without having to drill them with worksheets or w/e.

[aduidarnenye]

as long as they keep reading published stuff, they'll be okay. the subject matter doesn't have much to do with it, it's the constant exposure to grammatically correct writing and formal diction. I'd venture that even playing dialogue-heavy text in RPGs is positive, since they're getting that exposure. let kids play RPGs, turn off the voice acting, etc. renaissance pedagogical theory was all about exposure, ie, make the kids read a shitton of the classics so they absorb the style of writing and grammar precepts without having to drill them with worksheets or w/e.

That style only works for some of the students. Some students excel in that kind of environment while others have more success by actually learning the rules. The problem with all these educational theories that are popping about is that they tend to try to get all students into the same learning system, instead of figuring out what is best for the individual student. Which is, of course, a lot more expensive to do.

[Byrthnoth]

Two things that will never happen but would help a lot:
1) Make school year-round. - Apart from contributing to job stability for teachers, this would expand the school year by at least 3 months. You want your kids to learn more? Educate them more.
2) Pay teachers more. - It should be reasonable, but it also should be an attractive career for smart people that like teaching. When it comes down to it, our best and our brightest end up paid a lot more money in the private sector than the federal government can possibly hope to match. We either have to give up on the best and the brightest, or raise taxes and pay appropriately. Given America's apathy towards education, the first option is much more likely. If teaching paid $60/year, it would be more competitive with other jobs that a BS or BA can hope to get coming out of college. Paying an uneducated wage gets you uneducated people. No disrespect meant to the teachers out there who just do it for the kids.

[Kaslo]

They are already considering going year round in most of the Oklahoma City and Tulsa school districts.

[Byrthnoth]

It would be a big improvement. We're not an agricultural nation anymore, so we don't really need the summers off.

There's also this: http://www.thenotebook.org/blog/1139...eating-teacher
What could you really say to a teacher like that? Most of her kids needed help a decade ago, and suddenly the funding of her school and her own employment rest on their performance this year.

[solanis]

I went to a year-round private boarding high school for two years. the school was on a farm and ranch, so a big part of the annual aspect was that we needed to be around to work all year. we operated on two-month quarters, followed by a week off where you could stay on campus and chill or go home. it was a great system even discounting our agricultural work, but year-round schedules would neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever be accepted by teachers' unions.

[Not Kuno]

Schools during the summer is never going to work:

1) Teachers will have aneurysms
2) Tourism will plummet, causing lots of money to be lost all over the place.

Edit:

Also
3) Summer school is needed so some students can pass.

[Alarial]

So wait, someone watched "Waiting for Superman" and didn't realize it was propaganda?

The problem with our education system is the Democrats and Unions... Right.

[Terrestrialrage]

Tenure is a huge joke. The only thing it protects teachers from is being fired for teaching subjects that higher-ups don't agree with, but there are ways around that too. If a school REALLY wants to fire a teacher, all they have to do is cite budget issues and the teacher is gone. As Kuno pointed out, anything you do outside of school is on the table when it comes to your job. If you really want to fix the education problem, I am of the opinion that we need to raise teacher salary a bit, mandate certification for all teachers (those without it have 2 years to acquire it), make the certification process more rigorous, and emphasize critical thinking and base skills (math, reading, science) at lower grade levels. Kids come to higher grades without the necessary skills needed for advanced concepts, such as reading comprehension/analysis and fundamental math processes. A school that I observed at 2 years ago had a 78% uncertified teacher rate. The problem is is that society blames the teacher for everything, gives them no respect, pays them nothing, and wants their kids, who go in with the inability to divide 37 into 148 (this happened in a Pre-Cal class), to come out knowing how to take definite integrals. Parents and the higher-ups need to see that there is some student accountability here and while there are bad teachers, that is hardly the entirety of the problem.

[Day]

Well if you increase their pay millions of teaching jobs will be lost per solanis. So good luck with that.

[Greatguardian]

Schools during the summer is never going to work:

1) Teachers will have aneurysms
2) Tourism will plummet, causing lots of money to be lost all over the place.

Edit:

Also
3) Summer school is needed so some students can pass.

Which teachers? Both my parents and my younger sister are either teachers or profs, and all 3 try to teach summer classes whenever humanly possible (usually at a college though, because fuck special ed), because it means they actually get paid more than total shit. Many teachers (can't speak for every state, of course) are already receiving an innate 25% pay cut which the state legislature justified by flaunting that ridiculous "you only work 9 months out of the year!" argument.

Personally, in a family of teachers, I can tell you right now that I'd love the opportunity to teach. Unfortunately, unlike the rest of my family, I am absolutely not content with the ratio of headaches/work/bullshit to pay/benefits/recognition that teaching entails. People just do not like teachers. Child doesn't want to learn? It's the teacher's fault. Child doesn't show up to school? It's the teacher's fault. Child is a hyper-aggressive sycophant with no respect for authority and/or the personal safety of others? It's the teacher's fault. My mom has had multiple fingers broken by students before, when she taught middle school. Yes. My mom's not a small woman either. She's 55 and still works outside 3-4 hours a day tending her horses and building fences in her pasture. Many children these days are simply being taught at home that they shouldn't be listening to teachers.

If you want to fix education, first fix the fact that being educated is considered a negative trait in our national culture. Fix the fact that little black kids are considered "oreos" if they demonstrate any semblance of academic prowess and mastery of the English language. Fix the fact that being white and not Asian is an excuse to not understand simple mathematics. Fix the fact that teachers are universally blamed and hated by both the news media and the parents at home for their students failures.

Education is not a one-way street. No teacher, no matter how bloody amazing they are, can teach to students who do not want to learn. They cannot force students to respect them, or listen to them, or even show up to class. At the same time, even when students come to school willing and able to learn, it is difficult to do so when there is simply not the funding for the programs that these students require. In case it's not blatantly clear enough, there is a HUGE gap between any student who gives a fuck and the students that don't. It's not a matter of innate intelligence. Anyone can succeed. The problem is that we are focusing so much on the students that don't want to, that the students who do rarely get the attention they need.

Our current system not only wastes resources on students that don't deserve them (This is NOT the same as all underperforming students. Yes, I realize there is a clear and marked difference between students who have not have the opportunity to succeed, and students who simply refuse to bother), but restrains the students who both need and deserve the resources. When I went to high school, I was lucky enough to have a principal who was, frankly, loaded and funded the majority of our extra academic programs personally. When students like myself and a dozen others were whizzing past Calculus 2 by the time we were sophomores, she went out and hired former college professors to come in at 7am and teach Differential Equations, Calc 3, and Physics 2 E/M. Biggest "surprise"? There were only 3 Asians in that group of 12, and 2 of the students were black (both on Varsity Basketball). It's fucking pathetic how many people in this country would consider that a practical impossibility.

Fixing the problems with our culture is not something anyone can retroactively do now. It's just something people have to keep in mind when they have children, and their children have children, and eventually things will change.

What we can do now, though, is make it easier (nay, in many cases, possible) for successful students to succeed more. Increase the average salary for teachers. Not only would you have fewer teachers having to work 3 jobs just to get by (way too common, and causes a lot of classroom fatigue), but you would attract more highly qualified individuals who are simply unwilling to work for the terrible pay, negligent benefits, and shitty market outlook (Education is fun to cut, brah). Then increase funding for extracurricular programs and curriculum expansion. If kids can handle Calculus as high school freshmen, fucking teach them Calculus. There is no excuse for shackling a child's potential.

[Terrestrialrage]

Well as it stands, the low certification requirements and above minimum wage pay attracts low-quality teachers. The only way to weed them out is make certification harder or increase pay, or both preferably. One way or another the weak ones need to be weeded out and replaced with quality teachers.

[Acturus]

Schools during the summer is never going to work:

1) Teachers will have aneurysms
2) Tourism will plummet, causing lots of money to be lost all over the place.

Edit:

Also
3) Summer school is needed so some students can pass.

To your point #1, I agree. The entie education system needs to be overhauled massively, and only accounting for year round school would be a horrible change.

To #2, I can't realistically agree with tourism 'plummeting'. How many students in primary school (Age 5-18) travel for three months out of the year here in the US? Most working adults with vacation time get 1-2 weeks if they're lucky, and while tourism could decrease, it mostly just compress. Besides, year round school is not 365 days of school. A school system with three trimesters year round still get some sort of a break between the trimesters. I would expect summer-based daycares and programs and activities would be the areas that would fall apart, not tourism.

To #3, that's sort of a chicken and egg argument, isn't it? Students need Summer school to pass the classes they didn't pass in the previous year, but if you gave them the Summer as part of their previous year, it should balance out, right? Either way, it's less remedial time to learn, and more direct time to learn.

Personally, I would love to see year round school considered as part of a system-wide overhaul, and it's the only way I could justify a 60K base (current base is what, 25K or thereabouts, not counting benefits?) salary for teachers if we are expecting them to compete with other industries for college graduates.

[Hyan]

Throw more money at it!

[Not Kuno]

Hey cool, I like intellectual replies that aren't derpy.

Tenure is a huge joke. The only thing it protects teachers from is being fired for teaching subjects that higher-ups don't agree with, but there are ways around that too. If a school REALLY wants to fire a teacher, all they have to do is cite budget issues and the teacher is gone. As Kuno pointed out, anything you do outside of school is on the table when it comes to your job.

Tenure is bullshit because your rights as a teacher are bullshit. Fix the second and the first one wont be as important. How many jobs are there that can get you fired as easily as a teacher? Even politicians/cops/firefights can be ok if they fuck up their personal lives, and they're probably the most "in the line of fire" in regards to public view. Street level bureaucracy bros gotta stick together.

If you really want to fix the education problem, I am of the opinion that we need to raise teacher salary a bit, mandate certification for all teachers (those without it have 2 years to acquire it), make the certification process more rigorous

Well as it stands, the low certification requirements and above minimum wage pay attracts low-quality teachers. The only way to weed them out is make certification harder or increase pay, or both preferably. One way or another the weak ones need to be weeded out and replaced with quality teachers.

Dude. Are you shitting me? I'm sure in backwater USA the requirements are ass but in NYS we have strict as fucking hell requirements for being a teacher. They include:

30 Credits in Subject Area
6 Math
6 Science
9 English
Masters Degree
Passing 3 tests (One teaching test, one content test, and one liberal arts exam; each of which costs 90 bucks)

The problem is is that society blames the teacher for everything, gives them no respect, pays them nothing, and wants their kids, who go in with the inability to divide 37 into 148 (this happened in a Pre-Cal class), to come out knowing how to take definite integrals. Parents and the higher-ups need to see that there is some student accountability here and while there are bad teachers, that is hardly the entirety of the problem.

Haha a teacher a while back did the math, and found out if teachers got payed the rates of day cares (which is essentially what schools are), teachers would be making a lot more money. And on top of that, you have to teach them stuff too.

Which teachers? Both my parents and my younger sister are either teachers or profs, and all 3 try to teach summer classes whenever humanly possible (usually at a college though, because fuck special ed), because it means they actually get paid more than total shit.

Summer school is extra bank. Profs dont really count, and it depends on where you teach. I'm talking from the inner city public school perspective. I'm sure most people would love to teach honor roll or AP classes all year.

I am absolutely not content with the ratio of headaches/work/bullshit to pay/benefits/recognition that teaching entails. People just do not like teachers. Child doesn't want to learn? It's the teacher's fault. Child doesn't show up to school? It's the teacher's fault. Child is a hyper-aggressive sycophant with no respect for authority and/or the personal safety of others? It's the teacher's fault.

Ding ding ding.

My mom has had multiple fingers broken by students before, when she taught middle school. Yes. My mom's not a small woman either. She's 55 and still works outside 3-4 hours a day tending her horses and building fences in her pasture. Many children these days are simply being taught at home that they shouldn't be listening to teachers.

You have to be a psycho to teach middle school. I can never do that. And you're right, parents go against teachers so hard it becomes a pain.

Well as it stands, the low certification requirements and above minimum wage pay attracts low-quality teachers. The only way to weed them out is make certification harder or increase pay, or both preferably. One way or another the weak ones need to be weeded out and replaced with quality teachers.

Again, this varies state by state.

To #2, I can't realistically agree with tourism 'plummeting'. How many students in primary school (Age 5-18) travel for three months out of the year here in the US? Most working adults with vacation time get 1-2 weeks if they're lucky, and while tourism could decrease, it mostly just compress. Besides, year round school is not 365 days of school. A school system with three trimesters year round still get some sort of a break between the trimesters. I would expect summer-based daycares and programs and activities would be the areas that would fall apart, not tourism.

The tourism lobby pisses all over your education lobby. They actually make bank, unlike the money hole that people view education as.

To #3, that's sort of a chicken and egg argument, isn't it? Students need Summer school to pass the classes they didn't pass in the previous year, but if you gave them the Summer as part of their previous year, it should balance out, right? Either way, it's less remedial time to learn, and more direct time to learn.

Some students need that fire in their ass to get them moving. The prospect of "holy shit, I can actually fail" strikes harder when you gotta go to summer school. Of course, some kids just dont give a fuck regardless.

[Melena]

While an increase in teacher pay would help, what would be better is if teachers didn't have to spend thousands of there own dollars on school supplies for students due to budget cuts. That is why you can't retain teachers anymore, especially in high cost of living area's. There was an article, I think on CNN where a teacher resigned cause after her divorce, the 50k a year she made from teaching was not enough to live on when you factor bills, rent, school supplies, etc. Hell, why would you want to deal with shit heads for 50k a year, when you can get a less stressful job for more money and not have to buy shit to do your job out of your own pocket.

[Terrestrialrage]

Masters Degree

Ouch. For having a Master's and dealing with that I can see why up there you guys are angry. Being from Louisiana, our requirements entail a MASSIVE Associate's Degree and a 6-month course that essentially comes out to 12 credit hours. Its a slap in the face to those of us who go through the school's certification which runs 40+ hours of child psychology, methods, and lesson plans along with 40 for gen ed and 50-60 for subject area. Also half the teachers arent certified anyways and have a degree in gen ed or accounting and call themselves math teachers. Up there, ya, requirements arent easy.