Education in America

[Ksandra]

ugh...I wrote a long rant and my fucking cat hit the back button.................................RAGE


To be quick.

Unions don't do jack when it comes to setting standards for education. They didn't create NCLB, they don't make the state tests, they don't tell teachers how they need to teach.

All Unions do is protect teacher pay and make sure they don't get fired without good reason.

It is very easy to fire a teacher.


10 bucks says OP was watching fox news. Repubs want to get rid of all unions so they put the blame on them. It's ridiculous. Unions is what people should be striving for, not blaming.


Also, too lazy to go back but whoever commented about cursive being pointless gtfo. Cursive actually helps you with your print writing because of how it teaches your hand to flow. And trust me, there's a lot out there that need that practice.

[Cream Soda]

- no uniforms in most districts, resulting in low morale

wat?

"oh hey, these kids aren't wearing the same thing, I guess I won't study as hard and socialize more"

Edit: as far as cursive goes, definitely a waste of time. Should do away with cursive, period. People write so illegibly in that shit and pretty much after the year in school we learned it, we never had to write with it again.

I can read it just fine if it's like from a printer or someone with really good handwriting, but 99% of the time, it just makes for a huge mess on a page.

[quannum]

the owners of this country don't want an educated public, the reason education sucks in america. they're really good at making propaganda to blame worker unions, no matter the profession, a united work force is bad for business.

[ronin sparthos]

wat?

"oh hey, these kids aren't wearing the same thing, I guess I won't study as hard and socialize more"

Edit: as far as cursive goes, definitely a waste of time. Should do away with cursive, period. People write so illegibly in that shit and pretty much after the year in school we learned it, we never had to write with it again.

I can read it just fine if it's like from a printer or someone with really good handwriting, but 99% of the time, it just makes for a huge mess on a page.

As much as I hated uniforms as a kid in elementary school, they do help take away from the distraction of who has money and who doesn't. You'll see trends where everyone is wearing designer stuff and if your parents don't have that money then you're made to feel like shit for it. Lets not even mention the kids who wear the same stuff repeatedly cause they just don't have that many clothes to wear.

Im sure this is the part where someone brings up that kids will just gravitate towards something else to tier eachother by if you implement uniforms and I don't exactly disagree with that.

The bigger problem with an education is that the media wants idiots and so does the government. What better way to rule over a populace if most people don't even know who the fuck you are? lol

[Ksandra]

the owners of this country don't want an educated public, the reason education sucks in america. they're really good at making propaganda to blame worker unions, no matter the profession, a united work force is bad for business.

And too many people fall for this hook, line, and sinker. Unions aren't perfect, but they are better than not having unions. The propaganda always shows what's wrong with Unions in a way that people don't stop and think how bad it is without them.

[solanis]

the owners of this country don't want an educated public, the reason education sucks in america. they're really good at making propaganda to blame worker unions, no matter the profession, a united work force is bad for business.

the Man is purposefully and methodically trying to keep you down.

[Byrthnoth]

the owners of this country don't want an educated public, the reason education sucks in america. they're really good at making propaganda to blame worker unions, no matter the profession, a united work force is bad for business.

Cynical outlook, but not incorrect. If public education in the US was compulsory and zoned so it crossed socioeconomic borders, I think we would see a dramatic change in the education system.

It would also be interesting to see the percentage of GDP invested in education for nations around the world, if anyone happens to know a source.

[Ksandra]

I also want to point out that when you see lists of countries and education it is a little skewed so take it with a grain of salt. I've learned over the years that they rank them a lot of times based on government tests (ie the SATs) on how well students do on them on average. And a lot of countries don't do as much or at all critical thinking on tests the way we do here. For example, we give a lot of questions in reading that say things like "What is the best title for this story?" "Why do you think she did that?" etc.

A lot of countries do the strict method of, read a passage -> answer questions that can be directly found in the passage.

I really had to work on teaching my Chinese ESL students how to work on their critical thinking for reading the way we do here since they weren't used to it.


I am not saying our education is great though btw, just it's not as bad necessarily as it looks when you compare it to other countries.

[aduidarnenye]

The school system doesn't have to be fully year round. A model where students have 3-4 weeks off at the end of every semester would work well. The only things I could see suffering would be those hugely expensive summer camps that parents are forced to send their kids to every year because they have to go to work and can't stay home to look after them. Parents would probably save money by a longer school year.

I think students should have uniforms as well. It does put them into a learning mentality. I don't think the uniforms should be strict. They should have a variety of options.

[Kuya]

What is Finland doing?

[quannum]

On the 2009 PISA, U.S. 15-year-olds’ average score in reading literacy was 500, which was not measurably different from the OECD average of 493 (Possible scores on PISA assessments range from 0 to 1,000). The average reading literacy score in the United States was lower than the average score in 6 of the 33 other OECD countries, higher than the average score in 13 of the other OECD countries, and not measurably different from the average score in 14 of the OECD countries. Comparable reading literacy results were also reported for 31 non-OECD jurisdictions, 3 of which had higher average scores than the United States. In all participating OECD countries and non-OECD jurisdictions, girls outperformed boys in reading.

The U.S. gender gap in reading (25 points) was smaller than the OECD average gap (39 points) and smaller than the gaps in 24 of the OECD countries and 21 of the non-OECD jurisdictions.

In mathematics literacy, U.S. 15-year-olds’ average score of 487 on the 2009 PISA was lower than the OECD average score of 496. The average mathematics literacy score in the United States was lower than the average score in 17 of the 33 other OECD countries, higher than the average score in 5 of the other OECD countries, and not measurably different from the average score in 11 of the OECD countries. In 6 of the 31 non-OECD jurisdictions, the mathematics literacy scores of 15-year-olds were higher than the average score in the United States.

In science literacy, the average score of 15-year-olds in the United States was not measurably different from the OECD average score. The U.S. average science literacy score was lower than the average score in 12 of the 33 other OECD countries, higher than the average score in 9 of the other OECD countries, and not measurably different from the average score in 12 of the OECD countries. In 6 of the 31 non-OECD jurisdictions, the science literacy scores of 15-year-olds were higher than the average score in the United States.

2009 reading, math and science literacy of 15 yr olds.

[solanis]

The school system doesn't have to be fully year round. A model where students have 3-4 weeks off at the end of every semester would work well. The only things I could see suffering would be those hugely expensive summer camps that parents are forced to send their kids to every year because they have to go to work and can't stay home to look after them. Parents would probably save money by a longer school year.

I think students should have uniforms as well. It does put them into a learning mentality. I don't think the uniforms should be strict. They should have a variety of options.

I think colleges should have uniforms, to satisfy my lust for a man in academic formal dress.

[Cream Soda]

I think colleges should have uniforms, to satisfy my lust for a man in academic formal dress.

Never!

Tank tops and shorts onry

[Not Kuno]

The problem with international tests is that it is easy to have a national curriculum for smaller countries. Here we let bumblefuck states teach whatever retarded shit they want and it drops the US down a lot. You might argue they all get taught the same thing, but come on. If you're teaching a subject that doesn't have a standardized test then the teacher can teach whatever the fuck they want.

[Fairy-Killer]

inb4 lolTexas.

Anyways, some educational background on myself: I graduated from a 1A school in Middle-of-fucking-no-where, Texas. Top of my class, always wanting to succeed, etc. Out of my class of 20, we had 5 drop outs. Iirc, Texas has one of the highest drop out rates out of all the states. In a smaller school, you get a lot more personal with a teacher and while this can be good, it can also be bad. I can't even count how many times I've seen a coach come up to a teacher and ask them to help one of the athletes pass. This just encourages people to not give a damn. This attitude also stems from the home life. I have yet to see a student graduate that didn't have a decent family. The ones with a shitty life back at home brought it with them to school and it showed. However, every over-protected child that graduated has gone to college and fucked it up by partying too much. It all stems off of expectations. I now attend Texas A&M (whoop) and I have revisited my school several times to try and suggest some things to help kids transition over into a larger college. But the thing is, no one expects them to succeed. For example, I went looking for the principal and found her in a classroom full of seniors where a counselor was talking to them about college. Which you are probably thinking, this is great, right? Well it would be if it wasn't January. And the only colleges that accept kids this late is junior colleges/technical schools. Basically, at my school it came down to no one expecting people to succeed so they didn't.

On the part where I tried to help with suggestions... Everything was shot down because of the school's lack of resources. Not only monetary but also human. There just isn't enough teachers to provide kids with a basic calculus or physics class. Creative classes are non existent. Hell, the only foreign language taught at my school was Spanish and it was taught by a teacher who wasn't even certified to teach Spanish! It saddened me to go in there with all these suggestions on how to improve that high school and not one of them even got looked at because of the lack of resources.

For the education system in general... It needs a complete overhaul based on the child's skills. If they really like math and science, then why try to shove British Literature down their throat? I'm not saying completely skip out on trying to learn English or something, but the schools need to be more specialized. And they need to be based on how a child learns. I am a very visual learner and trying to read books to understand subjects is a struggle for me. Not everyone learns the same way, so why try and teach everyone the same way? Also, the current system caters to idiots, much like a person stated before in this thread. You teach at a C level and the A students are going to get brought down. Why should a student who cares enough to learn be brought down because the little hellion in the corner wants to shoot spitballs at the ceiling fan all day? But to alleviate this problem, a larger gap between the intelligent and the dumb begins to appear.

I don't really know much about the pay of teachers and how they get fired and blah blah. I just know at my former high school, teachers are paid $40~k a year if that.

TLDR Major overhaul suggestions from a Texan. You should probably just ignore it.

[Ksandra]

The problem with international tests is that it is easy to have a national curriculum for smaller countries. Here we let bumblefuck states teach whatever retarded shit they want and it drops the US down a lot. You might argue they all get taught the same thing, but come on. If you're teaching a subject that doesn't have a standardized test then the teacher can teach whatever the fuck they want.

I'd also like to point out that we also require students with special needs to take state tests, and they get factored in with everyone else.

A lot of other countries say "Fuck YOU!" to special ed. So that does skew it even more.

Again, not saying we're the best, just saying that there's a lot you don't see when you just look at the scores in comparison to other countries, and that we aren't as bad as they may make us out to be.


And quite frankly, I've worked with a lot of students with special needs, they deserve an education, so fuck the other countries, we're doing good by allowing them in the schools. Though I will say sometimes it's a bit retarded to force them to take these tests when they can't even count past 3.

[Altariel]

I'm not sure its completely accurate to say that teachers outside of standardized test subjects are able to teach whatever they want. Most school districts adhere to a curriculum which mandate the goals or outcomes students are expected to achieve at any given grade level. Many districts base these goals upon national standards drawn up by the professional organizations in each discipline (music, art, economics, science etc.) So while there may be some additional latitude in day to day teaching in these areas, teachers have to design their lessons with an end result in mind.

[Plow]

What we can do now, though, is make it easier (nay, in many cases, possible) for successful students to succeed more. Increase the average salary for teachers. Not only would you have fewer teachers having to work 3 jobs just to get by (way too common, and causes a lot of classroom fatigue), but you would attract more highly qualified individuals who are simply unwilling to work for the terrible pay, negligent benefits, and shitty market outlook (Education is fun to cut, brah). Then increase funding for extracurricular programs and curriculum expansion. If kids can handle Calculus as high school freshmen, fucking teach them Calculus. There is no excuse for shackling a child's potential.

What's really sad is that in the current system, the best "teaching" I ever had was when I went to an alternative school where you work at your own pace and by halfway through my junior year I'd reached the point where the teachers couldn't learn the things fast enough to stay ahead and actually be able to teach me, so they signed off on me getting a G.E.D. with the provision that I'd start college the next year.

The only thing cursive is useful for is creating your own signature, and that's kind of been thrown out the window. We don't need that shit.

On another note, I don't think the problem is shitty teachers or even standardized tests. I think we have a lot of great teachers out there that get discredited for the one or two REALLY shitty ones that show up on occasion. The problem is that kids don't want to learn, and I think this is because we don't focus on finding ways to inspire kids to learn. I, and other friends of mine, excelled because we wanted to learn, and we saw plenty of others fail because they simply didn't want to learn. And there seems to be a growing segment of kids that don't want to learn. We need to solve that issue before going anywhere else in my opinion.

There's a pattern you're going to see here, basically I could reply to almost every complaint in this thread with "pay teachers more."

In this aspect, it's because there's no magical solution to make kids want to learn, you have to be willing to pay enough to have people teaching that are capable of making the kids want to learn *FROM THEM*. Everybody wants to learn, we're humans, we're curious. Nobody wants to learn from some douchebag that took the job because it's better than shoving hoses down toilets and sucking out shit, which pays the same.

[Ryany]

I looked up the average teacher pay in the public school district I went through. Teachers are making roughly 1.5x the median income for the area. That sounds fair to me. I'm guessing other areas must be paying less relative to the area.

[Plow]

I looked up the average teacher pay in the public school district I went through. Teachers are making roughly 1.5x the median income for the area. That sounds fair to me. I'm guessing other areas must be paying less relative to the area.

"Sounds" fair, sure. Until you realize the median for American labor is unskilled barely trained workers that half of didn't graduate high school.