Education in America

[Darus Grey]

Really? I don't know a single teacher personally who went to it because it was easy.

Now you know one.

I love making high double digits for what is a 6-9 hour work week.

[miokomioko]

Yeah, I know a very select few friends who are great teachers and love doing it more than anything... but the other 90% of those I have met were drug-addicts and/or lazy shitbags that were drawned to the idea of just handing out worksheets and letting kids read while they sit on their laptop/cellphone while getting summers off, often talking shit about their students on a daily basis. I really despise these people.

[Rocl]

Now you know one.

I love making high double digits for what is a 6-9 hour work week.

The purpose of my post is that anecdotal evidence swings both ways. Also high double digits? Base starting salary around here w/ Master's is about mid double digits.

Also I wouldn't say I know you personally either!

[Xantavia]

From my time in school (class of '93), these are things that bothered me.

Pys. Ed. was the only course required for 4 years. Math, English, and Science were only 2 years.

Relying on computers for English work. Spellcheck and Grammarcheck were just as much by students as some teachers. It was requested (not required) to turn in our papers on disc.

Calculators in math were becoming a requirement at lower and lower grade levels. As a sophomore, we were supposed to have a scientific calculator for trig functions. My youngest sister was required to have a 4 function calculator when she hit 2nd grade and it just got worse. (As an aside, I laughed hard senior year when in preparation of for the AP calc test, our teacher banned the use of graphing calculators on tests. Only 3 of us didn't have a drastic reduction in our scores, the 3 of us who didn't use a graphing calculator in the first place)

The emphasis on athletics over academics. I don't know how many pep rallies I was forced to attend, but they would cut all our classes short to make time for them. Related, there were many times the football team was allowed to come to school late or leave early, to mentally prepare for the game.

The removal of tracking of students. (Think that's the term I hear my brother, a teacher, use) Mix the smart and dumb kids together so nobodies feelings get hurt, and don't make the course too challenging for the same reason.

And from what I hear, No Child Left Behind causes more problems than it is supposed to solve. Teachers teach to the test in order to get funding. You get parrot fashion learning, instead of learning any type of critical reasoning skill.

And one more thing nobody cares about. I signed up to take auto shop in HS, because it was something different and I could see use for it outside of school. Next semester starts, I don't have it scheduled. Talk to my lolguidance counselor, she says "I'm too smart for that kind of class", and it is full now so I can't get into it. She gives me a study hall. Yeah, that makes sense to me, have nothing to do for a period instead of learning. She also gave me grief for taking a drafting class, saying I shouldn't blow off my senior year. I guess Calc2, Physics2, English4, and Latin4 mean I wasn't serious about learning that sememster.

There is no respect for teachers good or bad, and you'd be surprised by the amount of "good" teachers that are perceived as bad because they were strict while forgetting how much they learned was actually from said teacher.

This has so much truth to it. I had the "bad" biology teacher first semester Freshman year. I had to work hard to earn a B in his class. Second semester, due to a schedule change, I got the "good" teacher. I had something around 115% in his class. Later in life, I realize how much more I appreciated the "bad" teacher. He forced me to challenge myself, and I honestly wish I had had more teachers like him. Sure, at the time I loved the easy teachers, but I didn't learn dick from the classes where I didn't have to do any work for an A.

[Cesaria]

Oh yeah. That would be great. But the problem is most parents don't know what their kids are doing. They don't even know how to raise their own god damn kids. Do you know what happens when little Billy has been acting up in class and a parent is at parent/teacher or they got called in for that behavior? They'll ask the teacher what they can do.

They did a show over here a few weeks ago recording what kids actually got up to in class and showing it to their parents... lots of crying parents.

Most of the exact same criticisms get hurled at the system over here as well (although what we need to cover is nationally set rather than state-by-state). First day of teacher training we got a speech with words to the effect that "you will get head lice, you will end up with a trashed back if you're teaching infants (4-7years ish), and everyone is always an expert on education because they once went to school." Never heard truer words.

Yeah the pay for teaching's relatively good to start with (the problem we have is that it doesn't scale in proportion with graduate professions and to keep increasing you end up having to move out of the classroom and into management) - and having the long summer holidays off is bloody brilliant - on the other hand you spend the remaining months of the year working all the hours you can for a class of kids where half the parents actively hate and undermine you and the other half think that Chardonnay is some special undiscovered little protege and that you're not fully reaching her potential by teaching her the SH sound when they think she should be reading Shakespeare as she's so able (Chardonnay not actually being like that at ALL but dellusion is a powerful thing).

We've also got a pretty dreadful teacher unemployment issue going on as well- lots of people went into it thinking secure job, easy to get one, they're crying out for teachers aren't they - and then find hundreds chasing one post (particularly in primary - 4-11 years) and end up scraping a living as a sub-teacher which ain't a lifestyle I'd recommend if you're desperate for classes of your own (although I quite like it).

It's easy to stand back and think you've got all of the answers - but the level of kids coming into school is bombing through the floor year after year in terms of language skills (I've met 4 year olds who don't know their name isn't "oi you" - and a lot with perfect American accents off the TV cos no one's spoken to them), in terms of social skills, behaviour and just knowing about the world - kids who think that the only fruit around are bananas, kids who've never seen a grape and don't know what one is, kids that don't know you draw with a crayon and don't throw it or stab your friend with it, or climb shelves and furniture... when you consider the low starting point these kids come from - the level that they leave school at, although below national averages, is bloody fantastic really (we do actually have value added scores on the school league tables for national tests over here at least).

You go into teaching not giving a shit and you'd go insane within a year. And yep, some teachers aren't as intellectually capable as they possibly should be (particularly in the realm of apostrophe-land), but likewise, I know some academically incredibly gifted people who would be shite teachers - like my husband, who can perform really ridiculous mathematical calculations mentally but can he explain stuff - can he shite - he'd just get pissed off within 2 seconds about a kid who wasn't getting it like "why can't you just understand that this x this = this!"

[Cesaria]

Calculators in math were becoming a requirement at lower and lower grade levels. As a sophomore, we were supposed to have a scientific calculator for trig functions. My youngest sister was required to have a 4 function calculator when she hit 2nd grade and it just got worse. (As an aside, I laughed hard senior year when in preparation of for the AP calc test, our teacher banned the use of graphing calculators on tests. Only 3 of us didn't have a drastic reduction in our scores, the 3 of us who didn't use a graphing calculator in the first place)

<snipped a bit>

This has so much truth to it. I had the "bad" biology teacher first semester Freshman year. I had to work hard to earn a B in his class. Second semester, due to a schedule change, I got the "good" teacher. I had something around 115% in his class. Later in life, I realize how much more I appreciated the "bad" teacher. He forced me to challenge myself, and I honestly wish I had had more teachers like him. Sure, at the time I loved the easy teachers, but I didn't learn dick from the classes where I didn't have to do any work for an A.

The calculator thing pisses me off no end. They recently re-did our primary maths curriculum round here - previously kids got introduced to calculators in year 5 (the year they turn 10), by which time they've got the hand of written calculations and having a vague idea if the calculator's returning an obviously totally bollocks answer... so the genuises in government decided to "raise standards" and bring everything required down another year - so now we've got 9 year olds relying on calculators to work out 10+10. Add in the obsession with plonking kids in front of PCs - without teaching them how to use spellchecks and things sensibly, or think through internet search terms (another personal pet peeve of mine) and it's just fucking pointless.

Oh and I love the strict scary teacher thing - you always find that while the rest of the school are scared shitless of them, the classes that have them actually think they're awesome once they get to know them! (unless it's my old physics teacher who WAS just utterly terrifying - but I got away with murder cos I was the one in the class that was bloody good at her subject)

[Bethany]

Since it's sort of on Topic. lol

http://reason.tv/video/show/what-we-...he-save-our-sc

[hey]

Because,sad to say, the average parent would have wanted to learn from a teacher that never gave them any homework, didn't give them a detention for swearing at Suzie, had easy tests, etc.

I had a teacher in high school who gave maybe 1-2 small assignments per week, didn't care (didn't act like he cared, i should say) if anyone did any work, or even showed up at all. You didn't have to do anything at all to get a b/a. We frequently had days where we just did nothing at all.

And guess what? No one ever skipped the class, homework was completed far more than in any other class, kids who failed half their classes actually earned As, and we got through all the material we were supposed to for the year (which was pretty rare in my school). Sure, there were all kinds of shenanigans in the class, but when he wanted people to pay attention, they fucking paid attention.

Being strict is generally the worst possible thing a high school or lower teacher can do to get kids to learn. Acting like a friend will go far further. That doesn't mean let the kids do wtf ever, but sometimes, letting them think they can do anything they want (or nothing at all) is a good way to get them to do what you want them to.

A good high school teacher is one that can both make his students like him, and keep them interested, even when the material isn't. If that means no homework, letting kids break the rules, easy tests, and cracking jokes throughout the class, then so be it. School should be about learning, not grades, or homework. If people actually pay attention in class, homework is mostly redundant, and tests have nothing to do with learning.

[Caiyuo]

I don't

Spoiler: show

No idea who you're talking about

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

[greenhills]

the entire topic makes me very sad. i don't know how it can be fixed, but i do know that pulling my son out of the public system and paying for private education since i can afford it will not help.
and thats all i hear people suggesting to me since he has parents that give a damn.
will someone please think of the children!?!

[solanis]

the entire topic makes me very sad. i don't know how it can be fixed, but i do know that pulling my son out of the public system and paying for private education since i can afford it will not help.
and thats all i hear people suggesting to me since he has parents that give a damn.
will someone please think of the children!?!

you can either subject your son to the public school system to take a stand, or you can pull him out and do what's best for him. unless I'm being wooshed or something

[Acturus]

I had a teacher in high school who gave maybe 1-2 small assignments per week, didn't care (didn't act like he cared, i should say) if anyone did any work, or even showed up at all. You didn't have to do anything at all to get a b/a. We frequently had days where we just did nothing at all.

And guess what? No one ever skipped the class, homework was completed far more than in any other class, kids who failed half their classes actually earned As, and we got through all the material we were supposed to for the year (which was pretty rare in my school). Sure, there were all kinds of shenanigans in the class, but when he wanted people to pay attention, they fucking paid attention.

Being strict is generally the worst possible thing a high school or lower teacher can do to get kids to learn. Acting like a friend will go far further. That doesn't mean let the kids do wtf ever, but sometimes, letting them think they can do anything they want (or nothing at all) is a good way to get them to do what you want them to.

A good high school teacher is one that can both make his students like him, and keep them interested, even when the material isn't. If that means no homework, letting kids break the rules, easy tests, and cracking jokes throughout the class, then so be it. School should be about learning, not grades, or homework. If people actually pay attention in class, homework is mostly redundant, and tests have nothing to do with learning.

Acting "like a friend" is a poor choice of words, and the concept is a double-edged sword. That's the same story I hear from young mothers of teenage girls, "I don't want her to think of me as a mother, I want to be her friend".

The fact is no, teachers are not the students' friends. They are responsible for the transmission of both facts and understanding, and should regard themselves (and be regarded) as an authority figure.

Respect and Friendship are great, but should not be primary drivers of education.

I had no teachers that I considered my friend. I do recall, however, a number of teachers who made it quite clear that they held me to a standard, that I had to meet or exceed that standard, but that those teachers would do everything in their power to ensure I got there. I hated some of those teachers, but I learned me some edumacation.

Grades and homework and assignments are tools of learning. In some cases, they are effective, in others, they aren't. Removing them to make the teacher appear friendly is absurd. A good teacher understands how to make use of all tools available to them, and that includes assessing and measuring performance, however it gets done.

Students don't need a "friend" at the front of the room. They need someone who is going to commit to the students' learning. Things like friendship and respect are in some cases byproducts of that, but shouldn't be the basis for this type of student/teacher relationship.

[Melena]

From my time in school (class of '93), these are things that bothered me.

Pys. Ed. was the only course required for 4 years. Math, English, and Science were only 2 years.

Relying on computers for English work. Spellcheck and Grammarcheck were just as much by students as some teachers. It was requested (not required) to turn in our papers on disc.

Calculators in math were becoming a requirement at lower and lower grade levels. As a sophomore, we were supposed to have a scientific calculator for trig functions. My youngest sister was required to have a 4 function calculator when she hit 2nd grade and it just got worse. (As an aside, I laughed hard senior year when in preparation of for the AP calc test, our teacher banned the use of graphing calculators on tests. Only 3 of us didn't have a drastic reduction in our scores, the 3 of us who didn't use a graphing calculator in the first place)

The emphasis on athletics over academics. I don't know how many pep rallies I was forced to attend, but they would cut all our classes short to make time for them. Related, there were many times the football team was allowed to come to school late or leave early, to mentally prepare for the game.

The removal of tracking of students. (Think that's the term I hear my brother, a teacher, use) Mix the smart and dumb kids together so nobodies feelings get hurt, and don't make the course too challenging for the same reason.

And from what I hear, No Child Left Behind causes more problems than it is supposed to solve. Teachers teach to the test in order to get funding. You get parrot fashion learning, instead of learning any type of critical reasoning skill.

And one more thing nobody cares about. I signed up to take auto shop in HS, because it was something different and I could see use for it outside of school. Next semester starts, I don't have it scheduled. Talk to my lolguidance counselor, she says "I'm too smart for that kind of class", and it is full now so I can't get into it. She gives me a study hall. Yeah, that makes sense to me, have nothing to do for a period instead of learning. She also gave me grief for taking a drafting class, saying I shouldn't blow off my senior year. I guess Calc2, Physics2, English4, and Latin4 mean I wasn't serious about learning that sememster.


This has so much truth to it. I had the "bad" biology teacher first semester Freshman year. I had to work hard to earn a B in his class. Second semester, due to a schedule change, I got the "good" teacher. I had something around 115% in his class. Later in life, I realize how much more I appreciated the "bad" teacher. He forced me to challenge myself, and I honestly wish I had had more teachers like him. Sure, at the time I loved the easy teachers, but I didn't learn dick from the classes where I didn't have to do any work for an A.

4 years of Phys Ed? Shit must have changed since I graduated or your area had different standards. We were only required to do 2 years, and if you did any official school sports, during your sports season you just had to check in for roll call then go off campus before practice or the library to study. I was damn good at manipulating the requirements though. Used choir and drama to cover electives and english, and some other shenanigans so when my senior year hit, I was done with classes by lunch and could have graduated a semester early if I chose to.

[Viq]

Stuff about teachers being friends.

I think a lot of it depends on the subject being taught. For languages (again, lol@ American language requirements) it can be a very good thing. I personally teach English Conversation classes here in Korea. I take the approach of getting the students to think of me as a friend because it makes them more comfortable, and in turn makes them less shy about speaking in a foreign language. Since my goal is to get them to talk as much as possible while fixing their mistakes, this approach has worked wonders.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound like I completely disagree with your point. Just pointing out that there are times, or subjects where there can be a working exception to the rule.

[hey]

Acting "like a friend" is a poor choice of words, and the concept is a double-edged sword. That's the same story I hear from young mothers of teenage girls, "I don't want her to think of me as a mother, I want to be her friend".

A teacher has an entirely different role than a mother. Kids are more inclined to take an interest in what their friends say than what a teacher says. Obviously they still need to lay down the law when necessary, but a teacher isn't a parent. if they can get students to pay attention and learn, then it doesn't really matter if they don't do some homework, show up a few minutes late every once in a while, etc.

The fact is no, teachers are not the students' friends.

Obviously not, that's why it's called acting.

I had no teachers that I considered my friend. I do recall, however, a number of teachers who made it quite clear that they held me to a standard, that I had to meet or exceed that standard, but that those teachers would do everything in their power to ensure I got there. I hated some of those teachers, but I learned me some edumacation.

I don't know about your experiences, but mine were that the only kids who paid much attention in such classes were the ones who would have paid attention to any teacher in any class, no matter what.

Grades and homework and assignments are tools of learning. In some cases, they are effective, in others, they aren't. Removing them to make the teacher appear friendly is absurd. A good teacher understands how to make use of all tools available to them, and that includes assessing and measuring performance, however it gets done.

I never suggested removing them, but rather limiting them.

Students don't need a "friend" at the front of the room. They need someone who is going to commit to the students' learning.

Not sure why they can't have both.

4 years of Phys Ed? Shit must have changed since I graduated or your area had different standards.

It varies a lot from area to area. I was required 4 years of gym, 4 english, 3 science, 3 math, 3 history, and one foreign language.

[Hyan]

School should be about learning, not grades, or homework. If people actually pay attention in class, homework is mostly redundant, and tests have nothing to do with learning.

How often do you have to take tests generally?

Also, how long are the days + homework combined together?

[greenhills]

solanis, that is my whole point, and it touches on what mr grey said about education moving to the private sector. the fact that my best option is to send my son to the 10k per year school that only the lucky few will even ever get a tour of, let alone attend, is disgusting. there will always be good vs better, but it shouldn't be bad vs unattainable.
we are missing opportunities to better our situation as a society and the types of parents everyone dreads are just multiplying.

[hey]

How often do you have to take tests generally?

Also, how long are the days + homework combined together?

In high school? I probably averaged around 6 tests or so per month between all classes, plus 10-20 small quizzes. Short of holidays, or occasional weekends, homework was given in at least one class just about every single day.

[solanis]

solanis, that is my whole point, and it touches on what mr grey said about education moving to the private sector. the fact that my best option is to send my son to the 10k per year school that only the lucky few will even ever get a tour of, let alone attend, is disgusting. there will always be good vs better, but it shouldn't be bad vs unattainable.
we are missing opportunities to better our situation as a society and the types of parents everyone dreads are just multiplying.

increase the annual allocation of government spending on education above 1.7% of GDP or w/e it's at right now. democrat or republican, none of them actually give a fuck about public education. I don't blame the best teachers for going to private schools or wealthy public districts, they actually get paid there.

[Not Kuno]

Being strict is generally the worst possible thing a high school or lower teacher can do to get kids to learn. Acting like a friend will go far further.

Ung. There is no magic teaching style that works. Ultimately the best way to teach depends on your personality. You can't copy someone elses style if that isn't the type of person you really are. Kids have fucking x-ray vision, they will see through you. If you're the kind that is strict and doesn't let any bullshit get through, you can still be friendly and warm up to some students.

School should be about learning, not grades, or homework. If people actually pay attention in class, homework is mostly redundant, and tests have nothing to do with learning.

Ultimately you have to evaluate the students to see if they are learning. Kids can be smiles and sunshine when you teach a lesson but have no fucking clue what just happened. You have to give homework and grades.