Education in America

[Byrthnoth]

I don't blame the best teachers for going to private schools or wealthy public districts, they actually get paid there.

Ehhhhh I don't know about that. The teachers at my private school weren't paid so much more than public school teachers that it was really worth losing all the mandatory state employee benefits. Some claimed to effectively be making less than they would at any public school.

The ones I talked to later basically told me they chose to teach at private instead of public because of the kids they'd be teaching. I think it's a fair statement that (on average) people willing to pay over 10 grand a year for education generally have more respect for education than those who are not willing or unable to pay. You're teaching the children of those people, which means you probably have an easier time trying to get them to pay attention. Quite a few rich pricks and bitches to be sure, but at least they think what you're doing is worth 10 grand.

[Kaslo]

solanis, that is my whole point, and it touches on what mr grey said about education moving to the private sector. the fact that my best option is to send my son to the 10k per year school that only the lucky few will even ever get a tour of, let alone attend, is disgusting. there will always be good vs better, but it shouldn't be bad vs unattainable.
we are missing opportunities to better our situation as a society and the types of parents everyone dreads are just multiplying.

To be honest, if your kid isn't learning... you know you could help him. Everything the kid needs to learn is generally in the book for the class. Leaving it to the school alone isn't really an answer.

[hey]

Ultimately you have to evaluate the students to see if they are learning. Kids can be smiles and sunshine when you teach a lesson but have no fucking clue what just happened. You have to give homework and grades.

But the grades aren't what they are there for. They are there to learn. If they learn, grades are unimportant. Tests are still useful to see how well students learned, but beyond that, grades aren't even really a good measure of how much students have learned. Unless you can prove the student actually did the homework their self (in high school i would usually do homework in class when it was first given out, because i was too bored of crappy teachers spending 40 minute classes teaching something that could be taught in 5 minutes, then simply pass it around to the rest of the class. surely that wasn't uncommon?), it cannot be used to judge how well a student does.

[solanis]

But the grades aren't what they are there for. They are there to learn. If they learn, grades are unimportant. Tests are still useful to see how well students learned, but beyond that, grades aren't even really a good measure of how much students have learned. Unless you can prove the student actually did the homework their self (in high school i would usually do homework in class when it was first given out, because i was too bored of crappy teachers spending 40 minute classes teaching something that could be taught in 5 minutes, then simply pass it around to the rest of the class. surely that wasn't uncommon?), it cannot be used to judge how well a student does.

what's a good measure of how they've learned?

[Ksandra]

If people are worried about their kid's education but don't want to switch to private schooling, there's always Kumon.

Kumo is excellent for building mental math skills. For the English, Kumon is good till about 3rd grade. It's still ok after that but not as good as the math part. Kumon is based on constant repetition, while it keeps adding more bit by bit. If a kid doesn't do something fast enough you can keep going back and have them redo facts. For the English, the first few years is all phonics, which you can obviously keep repeating, afterwards, however, I believe it's 3rd grade when they switch it to being more reading comprehension stuff. Which you can't really have the kid go back and reread and answer the same questions, 'cause they'll already know the answer. If the kid is always up to speed, then it's fine, but if they are struggling the tutors will run out of material fast.


And the Kumon cooperation doesn't allow their workers to use any other material outside of their own, so you're better off just having the kid read to you out loud at home.

[Byrthnoth]

But the grades aren't what they are there for. They are there to learn. If they learn, grades are unimportant. Tests are still useful to see how well students learned, but beyond that, grades aren't even really a good measure of how much students have learned. Unless you can prove the student actually did the homework their self (in high school i would usually do homework in class when it was first given out, because i was too bored of crappy teachers spending 40 minute classes teaching something that could be taught in 5 minutes, then simply pass it around to the rest of the class. surely that wasn't uncommon?), it cannot be used to judge how well a student does.

This viewpoint is bullshit. Grades only become meaningless if you give meaningless grades.

* Homework grades - These exist to reward effort. Given sufficient time/resources, they don't really measure anything else.
* Test grades - These are an assessment of how much the kid has actually learned. If you make a good test, it's possible to find this out. You can be compassionate if kids come to you afterwards, but don't meaninglessly bump them up points on materials they don't understand just because they're whiners.

If you combine the two, you get a rough approximation of how successful the student is. The romantic notion of a "brilliant slacker" is less of a recipe for success and more of a recipe for mediocrity. Appropriately, it should award a B for mediocre homework and awesome tests. The "2 hours sleep pass, 4 hours sleep fail" Asian that really isn't so bright also gets a B, for immaculate homework and mediocre tests. If you were looking to employ someone to do work based solely on the material in your class, they'd be approximately equal candidates.

[hey]

what's a good measure of how they've learned?

Test scores are probably the closest thing, but between some people just doing poorly on tests for various reasons, and cheating generally being extremely easy, they certainly are not a perfect measure. Grades that include homework, or other things that are measured only by how much effort is put into them, are obviously meaningless.

[Darus Grey]

He's right, they're useless. Not only useless but that actively punish certain types of kids; more commonly then you think. If you're a bad test taker but you suffer from even just *marginal* levels of anxiety, you fucked. Having random tests that basically determine the direction of your life over an extended period is terrible and it discourages people to be adventurous.

How many people here have ever not taken a college class they thought they would enjoy or learn from, because they thought the material would be too difficult and thus effect their GPA?

Practically every one of you should raise your hand at that, and that's why grades fail for the majority. They encourage playing it safe; and that's the exact opposite kind of thinking we want to instill in people.


When I teach everyone gets an A by default just for showing up(and only because I *have* to give grades, and can't do P/F), the kids who are there to learn will learn regardless of their grade, the motivated ones will focus their energies on exploring the material versus just cramming for tests, and the unmotivated ones who are just there for the easy A, will at least learn something more than they would have by NOT taking my class.

My students don't go on to the higher level classes in the program lacking anything; and most of them appreciate learning in a very low-stress environment. Grades/tests are HIGH STRESS environments, and teachers seem to forget that.

[Not Kuno]

He's right, they're useless. Not only useless but that actively punish certain types of kids; more commonly then you think. If you're a bad test taker but you suffer from even just *marginal* levels of anxiety, you fucked. Having random tests that basically determine the direction of your life over an extended period is terrible and it discourages people to be adventurous.

And so they have to learn how to take tests. What the fuck is going to happen when they want to take the bar or something but crap their pants when they see a multiple choice? The bad test taker thing is bullshit and they need to be told it is something they're going to have to overcome. Your whole life is filled with tests, and they should be glad they have time to carefully read things over as opposed to like an interview.

[Byrthnoth]

"I don't do well with stress." or "I don't test well." might as well be saying "when I need to use this information, I can't remember it." Tests aren't assessing whether you ever know what is being tested. It's testing whether you can recall it on command.

Also, here is an example of why homework grades matter. The page doesn't even cover it all, specifically:

Spoiler: show

* You take a specific curriculum and do well enough to maintain a high GPA, which means you don't slack off in stupid classes.
* You volunteer at hospitals and do some research
* You generally go through some internal university process that ends with a letter of recommendation from your university.
* You get a TON of letters of recommendation (7?)
* You take the MCATs (honestly, would have been the least painful part of the process for me if they hadn't sent me to the wrong place with yahoo maps)
* You fill out a huge form online that's the equivalent to the common app for med schools. <-- seriously, probably 12 hours of hunting down bullshit dates and stuff just to fill this out
* You write individual essays for each school you're applying to. I believe the average med school student applies to 5 schools, but I had friends apply to up to 13.
* You pack it all up, pay an application fee for each application and each recipient for your common app/MCAT scors, and send it off to the schools you're applying to.
* If they like your application, they'll invite you for an interview. They don't cover travel costs.
* If they like your interview and you're in the final round, often they'll invite you back for a second interview. Again, they don't pay for travel costs.

Then, after that, you're in med school:
* First year - You go over the book stuff and sort of cram a regurgitation-based knowledge of a lot of different subjects that don't really apply directly to medicine.
* Second year - Generally more clinical (but not in the clinic). You cram more useful but still somewhat obscure facts about illnesses.
* First half of the Board Exam
* Third/Fourth years - Clinical work/rotations <-- You generally tell your med school your preference, but your board scores really determine the specialties available to you.
* Second half of the Board Exam
* If you did well on the board exams and want to specialize, you get to compete for highly selective Fellowships (similar to the med school application process, but with a less standard application.)

Do you really think some kid that can't turn in his homework on time is going to pull all that paperwork out of his ass and get it done? Not only that, but people apply to medical schools in the Summer after their Junior year of college.

Bureaucratic bullshit is a large part of a LOT of jobs, and your tolerance of it and efficiency in dealing with it is a big part of determining how successful you're going to be.

[Ksandra]

And so they have to learn how to take tests. What the fuck is going to happen when they want to take the bar or something but crap their pants when they see a multiple choice? The bad test taker thing is bullshit and they need to be told it is something they're going to have to overcome. Your whole life is filled with tests, and they should be glad they have time to carefully read things over as opposed to like an interview.

to go along with this. Learning to do you're homework in HS and under is insanely important for the college bound students.

Most of the freshman who fail in college do because they're too busy drinking and don't get their hw done. If you take an outside look, it's crazy how you can pass most classes just by making sure you completed all your work (not saying you'll get an A if you bomb tests, just that you will at least pass the class). It's also a show of effort to the teachers. I'll put myself on the chopping block and say I suck ass at physics. Terribly. I hate it. But I had to take it for a gen ed class. I struggled, but always did all my homework. Would go to the teacher for help on things I didn't understand. bombed on every exam he gave us. I got a B in the class because he knew I was making the effort and I wasn't just some drunk kid who falls asleep in class.



Basically, if you look underneath, a lot of what teachers teach you is about responsibility. Which is just as important (if not more in some cases) than the topic at hand.


[edit] haha basically beaten by Byrthnoth lol

[miokomioko]

anecdotal evidence swings both ways.

The purpose of my post wasn't to prove some generalization based on my anecdotal evidence, it was stating the fact that my anecdotal evidence exists. If what I mentioned happens at all, there's something very wrong. Granted, I don't think making the process of becoming a teacher a more difficult one is necessarily an answer to the problem right now.

[Ksandra]

If what I mentioned happens at all, there's something very wrong.

not really.


You want to make teaching so ultimately hard so that no one who thinks it's easy will do the job?


That's how we ended up scrounging around trying to find special ed teachers that aren't crap. Instead of people doing it because they know how to handle students with special needs, they do it because it's pretty much guaranteed they'll get a job since no one wants to do it.

[ronin sparthos]

to go along with this. Learning to do you're homework in HS and under is insanely important for the college bound students.

Most of the freshman who fail in college do because they're too busy drinking and don't get their hw done. If you take an outside look, it's crazy how you can pass most classes just by making sure you completed all your work (not saying you'll get an A if you bomb tests, just that you will at least pass the class). It's also a show of effort to the teachers. I'll put myself on the chopping block and say I suck ass at physics. Terribly. I hate it. But I had to take it for a gen ed class. I struggled, but always did all my homework. Would go to the teacher for help on things I didn't understand. bombed on every exam he gave us. I got a B in the class because he knew I was making the effort and I wasn't just some drunk kid who falls asleep in class.



Basically, if you look underneath, a lot of what teachers teach you is about responsibility. Which is just as important (if not more in some cases) than the topic at hand.


[edit] haha basically beaten by Byrthnoth lol

It also comes down to the teachers/profs grading style but I agree with what you say.

For instance, i am no fan of classes that grade you solely on exams. You can simply cram information then dump it out on paper come test day then go back to not giving a fuck about the material and still do phenomenally well.

While these classes are convenient, especially when you're solely thinking of getting an A or a passing mark, it often leads to a narrow judgment of the students in the class.

Tests are important but you get a much better picture of the student on a balanced regimen of exams, essays and homework in HS and college.

The courses I seem to enjoy the most are ones where the professor really critiques research and homework assignments because you get more out of that than how many multiple choice answers you cocked up.

[miokomioko]

You want to make teaching so ultimately hard so that no one who thinks it's easy will do the job?

Yikes, I specifically said that I didn't think that was an answer to this problem.

[Ksandra]

Yikes, I specifically said that I didn't think that was an answer to this problem.

I don't think there's a solution to that problem then, or that it's really a problem though. (note, not trying to attack you, just saying it's not as big a deal really)

[Mazmaz]

Thoughts on Khan Academy?

[Not Kuno]

i'm fucking matt daimon

[Ksandra]

AHAHAHAHA I love that.

[ronin sparthos]

"Well maybe you're a shitty cameraman, I dunno."

lmao.